Sony Wega KV-HP212M83 greenish retrace line with 2 blinks: Page 2


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Sony Wega KV-HP212M83 greenish retrace line with 2 blinks

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Ron.M
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Nov 27, 2012, 4:04 AM

Post #26 of 50 (4943 views)
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Re: [jayaram_c] Sony Wega KV-HP212M83 greenish retrace line with 2 blinks [In reply to]	Can't Post

jayaram_c;....

The resistor from B to E can be around 47 to 100 ohms or ?????
Depending on your meter , it may read very low...
Usually when a HOT goes bad , the C to E or B is VERY low , most times reads "0.0" ohms...
So yours may be OK ...

Quote

So the pending activity on my end is to isolate the C board from CRT and post the feedback.

About time !!!!!...

Quote

It would be helpful if we continue the post without arguments.

As far as my post to mel goes;....
There was NO venom there...NONE !!!
I'd call that "enlightenment" or "correcting" , whichever you preffer...
Certainly NOT an argument !!!!....

Later...Ron.M..... Cool

...
Veteran & Retired TV technician

jayaram_c
New User

Dec 1, 2012, 5:40 AM

Post #27 of 50 (4929 views)
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Re: [Ron.M] Sony Wega KV-HP212M83 greenish retrace line with 2 blinks [In reply to]	Can't Post

Yes, you guys were correct. It has 36ohms between B-E and the C is not short. So I have connected it back again.

I have removed the C board from the CRT and now the system runs with sound and without shutdown.

As I have already said in another scenario if I remove the 200v completely to C board or opening R794 which is passing this 200v to video driver IC, the system runs with sound and without shutdown.

So does it means the problem is with the CRT?

As I have already tried opening all Cathode resistors and got the same symptom, can we conclude the cathode is not short.

How shall we proceed now Ron.. do you have any idea...

jayaram_c
New User

Dec 1, 2012, 7:48 AM

Post #28 of 50 (4927 views)
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Re: [jayaram_c] Sony Wega KV-HP212M83 greenish retrace line with 2 blinks [In reply to]	Can't Post

To add further...

The pin# 9 of CRT (KG) seems to be short with pin#1 (GND). Also I can get this short few times and sometimes I can see it's not shorted, so its up and down...

If this was the case, when I open KG resistor this short could have stopped.

I am clueless...

(This post was edited by jayaram_c on Dec 1, 2012, 7:52 AM)

Ron.M
Veteran

Dec 1, 2012, 8:08 PM

Post #29 of 50 (4919 views)
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Re: [jayaram_c] Sony Wega KV-HP212M83 greenish retrace line with 2 blinks [In reply to]	Can't Post

jayaram_c;....

Bad news , it is the CRT that's bad....
Good news is that all is not lost....
Since you cannot add a separate winding around the flyback core , here is your miracle solution !!!
There is a device called "Isolated CRT Brightener" that isolates the short....
It is a special transformer easily installed...
I have personally installed countless numbers of these & gotten 100% satisfactory results...

The link below is from MCM electronics....
They are a bit pricey , but a reputable company...
$19.23 + s&h of ???

http://www.mcmelectronics.com/product/33-595

This one is from eBay..
http://www.ebay.com/...d4a902f#ht_288wt_884
Much cheaper...
$7.99 + $6.95 s&h...

These should have 2 ways to install them...
The ones I used had a special hookup for Sony CRTs...
This is a different version from the model I used..
IF you get this model , be sure you use the Sony CRT hookup , IF it has it...
Also if you get a choice of isolation without boost , hook it up that way..
They are not hard to install...
Simply cut the CRT filament supply foil on the CRT module...
In your case , that would be the lines going to pins #5 & #6...
Solder the appropriate colored wires to the CRT socket connections & to the foil going to the supply...
BYPASS R781 by soldering one of the supply wires to pin #4 of CN703...
I believe the 2 white wires will be the ones going to the supply..
If you have any questions or need further help , just post...

The model I used is "SPB2-ISO" & appears to be obsolete or hard to find..
It had the special Sony hookup...
IF you "Google" "SPB2-ISO" you get even more choices & take your chances there...
http://www.google.com/...0...1c.1.M48GznDKx-Q

Quote

The pin# 9 of CRT (KG) seems to be short with pin#1 (GND).

Care to recheck that ???
Pin #1 is NOT ground...

Hope this helps... Sly

...

Later...Ron.M.... Cool

...
Veteran & Retired TV technician

(This post was edited by Ron.M on Dec 1, 2012, 8:14 PM)

jayaram_c
New User

Dec 2, 2012, 3:36 AM

Post #30 of 50 (4910 views)
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Re: [Ron.M] Sony Wega KV-HP212M83 greenish retrace line with 2 blinks [In reply to]	Can't Post

Thanks Ron, I am back to page 1 where I was looking for these type of solutions for CRT H-K short and stopped as it needs to take power from flyback.

From your point I understand that we need to isolate CRT heater pins #5 and #6 from existing power supply of CN703. Connect the isolation transformer in between pin #3 #4 of CN703 and pin #5 and #6 of CRT. By this way I will be connecting only 2 input and 2 output from the isolation transformer.

Is it the right way to do Ron... Am I missing something.

Also what does Sony CRT hookup means.

Quote

The pin# 9 of CRT (KG) seems to be short with pin#1 (GND).

The pin #1 #13 is not actually circuit ground, but it's connected to CRT Earth ASSY.

(This post was edited by jayaram_c on Dec 2, 2012, 3:49 AM)

Ron.M
Veteran

Dec 2, 2012, 4:05 AM

Post #31 of 50 (4906 views)
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Re: [jayaram_c] Sony Wega KV-HP212M83 greenish retrace line with 2 blinks [In reply to]	Can't Post

jayaram_c];...

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From your point I understand that we need to isolate CRT heater pins #5 and #6 from existing power supply of CN703. Connect the isolation transformer in between pin #3 #4 of CN703 and pin #5 and #6 of CRT. By this way I will be connecting only 2 input and 2 output from the isolation transformer.

Is it the right way to do Ron... Am I missing something.

That IS correct !!!
You will be connecting the primary winding of the iso transformer to pins #3 & 4 of CN703...2 wires...(BYPASSING R781)..
That goes to the filament power supply from the flyback...
Pins #5 & 6 are the filament connections for the CRT...
That will be the secondary of the iso transformer...2 wires...

Later...Ron.M... Cool

...
Veteran & Retired TV technician

jayaram_c
New User

Dec 2, 2012, 6:21 AM

Post #32 of 50 (4904 views)
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Re: [Ron.M] Sony Wega KV-HP212M83 greenish retrace line with 2 blinks [In reply to]	Can't Post

Ron,

For my knowledge, how did we conclude the problem is with H-K short and we are isolating the heater now. When I check the pins I see the cathode is short with pin #1 of CRT and may or may not be with the heater. Does this problem arises because of cathode voltage passing through filament.

Have you experienced such kind of failures..

Ron.M
Veteran

Dec 2, 2012, 6:52 PM

Post #33 of 50 (4896 views)
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Re: [jayaram_c] Sony Wega KV-HP212M83 greenish retrace line with 2 blinks [In reply to]	Can't Post

jayaram_c;....

Just what I need...
More confusion..... Unsure

...
According to my manual , pin #1 IS focus voltage & NOT ground....
That could be 3KV~10KV...
Pin #13 goes to an adjustment called H-Stat....
Is NOT ground...
There is no way the cathode inside the CRT can short to the focus element inside the CRT...
They are physically too far apart....
IF you are reading a short from pin #9 to pin #1 , I need more info as to how you are reading that...

Quote

Does this problem arises because of cathode voltage passing through filament.

In a word, NO...

Quote

When I check the pins I see the cathode is short with pin #1 of CRT

With OR without the "C" board connected to the CRT ???
Also I'm presuming that the "cathode" is pin #9 ???

Quote

Have you experienced such kind of failures..

NOT the one you're talking about...

Later...Ron.M.... Cool

...
Veteran & Retired TV technician

(This post was edited by Ron.M on Dec 2, 2012, 6:59 PM)

jayaram_c
New User

Dec 3, 2012, 3:45 AM

Post #34 of 50 (4891 views)
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Re: [Ron.M] Sony Wega KV-HP212M83 greenish retrace line with 2 blinks [In reply to]	Can't Post

Ron

Quote

According to my manual , pin #1 IS focus voltage & NOT ground....
That could be 3KV~10KV...
Pin #13 goes to an adjustment called H-Stat....
Is NOT ground...
There is no way the cathode inside the CRT can short to the focus element inside the CRT...
They are physically too far apart....
IF you are reading a short from pin #9 to pin #1 , I need more info as to how you are reading that...

The Focus is connected to pin 13 and 1 from Flyback, but the same is traced to CN705 which says GND and connected to CRT Earth ASSY. I too confused from the C board.

Quote

When I check the pins I see the cathode is short with pin #1 of CRT

With OR without the "C" board connected to the CRT ???
Without. The first time when i checked the short were there for few min, but gradually went off... may be it's up and down...

Also I'm presuming that the "cathode" is pin #9 ???
You are right. its KG.

So, shall we assume and start working on H-K short to check whether it resolves the problem.

Ron.M
Veteran

Dec 3, 2012, 7:16 PM

Post #35 of 50 (4883 views)
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jayaram_c;....

Quote

So, shall we assume and start working on H-K short to check whether it resolves the problem.

NO , NOT yet...
We need to clear up this confusdion about WHAT type of short this REALLY IS...

Can you take pix & post them or the links to the pix ????
I'd like to see a GOOD , CLOSEUP , IN FOCUS pix of the CRT module (C board)...
I need to see the component side & the foil side...
PLEASE try to get GOOD CLEAR pix IF you can...
THANKS... Smile

...

...

Later...Ron.M.... Cool

...
Veteran & Retired TV technician

mel
Veteran

Dec 4, 2012, 3:23 AM

Post #36 of 50 (4875 views)
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Re: [jayaram_c] Sony Wega KV-HP212M83 greenish retrace line with 2 blinks [In reply to]	Can't Post

That H-Stat is a pot going to ground. If cranked all the way down, it can go to a zero to ground reading.

jayaram_c
New User

Dec 8, 2012, 6:44 AM

Post #37 of 50 (4845 views)
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Re: [Ron.M] Sony Wega KV-HP212M83 greenish retrace line with 2 blinks [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Ron,

I am unable to take a pix of the C board Frown

due to unavailability of cam with me.

However for your convenience I have given the link of similar PCB for your reference.

https://docs.google.com/...JC8o1Z0ZpSW5STFNLWTA

Here are the CRT pin outs to my knowledge.

1/13 - RCV (unable to get what does RCV mean)
No Pin 2
3 - G2 (Screen)
4/7/11 - G1 (Control Grid)
5 - GND
6 - H1 (Heater)
8 - KB
9 - KG
10-KR

After removing the C board I had shorts from Pin 1 and KG and now all pins are OK, may be it may come again later.

It could be H-K short or G-K short or in our case it may be with KG-RCV or am unsure about how should I proceed futher. We have already tried opening all three cathodes and found the same symptom exists.

Adding this URL for Ref.
http://www.thegleam.com/ke5fx/crt/sencrt.pdf

http://www.computerrepairs.com.au/...-best-way-to-repair/

jayaram_c
New User

Dec 8, 2012, 8:47 AM

Post #38 of 50 (4843 views)
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Re: [mel] Sony Wega KV-HP212M83 greenish retrace line with 2 blinks [In reply to]	Can't Post

Quote

That H-Stat is a pot going to ground. If cranked all the way down, it can go to a zero to ground reading.

Yes Mel. The Pin 1 and 13 are coming from a pot attached to CRT and that's connected to Flyback.

What do you think to isolate the problem and fix it... do you have any idea.. please share it...

Ron.M
Veteran

Dec 8, 2012, 10:21 PM

Post #39 of 50 (4797 views)
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mel;....

Quote

That H-Stat is a pot going to ground. If cranked all the way down, it can go to a zero to ground reading.

Usually those hi-meg pots have a stop on them so they don't zero out...
Not certain this one does , but....

jayaram_c;....

We're getting off track here !!!...
Forget about the damn H-Stat !!!!
It IS NOT a factor !!!

The problem I'm having is with what info you are giving me/us...

The CRT module was causing the TV to shutdown with the module ON the CRT...
No argument there....

Quote

I haven�t tried opening CRT module OFF from the CRT tube, as it requires unsoldering all the pins in this model.

The CRT module should unplug from the CRT without any unsoldering..
I presume we're past that point....

There is a malfunction with this link;=>...
https://docs.google.com/...JC8o1Z0ZpSW5STFNLWTA
Google's fault...
From the small bit of the CRT socket that does appear before the malfunction occurs , the board appears to be the same one I have in both the manuals I have...

Quote

1/13 - RCV (unable to get what does RCV mean)
No Pin 2

(RCV=Resistor Control Variable ???)
On that board , pin #1 is printed just to the left of "G4"...
Pin #1 IS actually on the other side of the board & on the top side of the CRT socket connector...
It should have a skinny red wire that goes down to the flyback....
Pin #13 somehow finds it's way to the H-Stat on the board...
Pin #13 does NOT go directly to the flyback....
The ground side of the H-Stat does ....
Have we got that cleared up ???

Quote

When I check the pins I see the cathode is short with pin #1 of CRT

With OR without the "C" board connected to the CRT ???
Without. The first time when i checked the short were there for few min, but gradually went off... may be it's up and down...

You may have been reading some residual voltage from the cathode...
IF you connected your meter from pin #9 to any point that connects to pin #3 (Ground) on connector CN703...
IF THAT"S THE CASE , we're back to a CRT short & not as I was begining to suspect a defective (Shorted) CRT socket...

In this article;=>....
http://www.computerrepairs.com.au/...-best-way-to-repair/

Have your life insurance paid up....
That is not only risky to your health but DANGEROUS !!!

The same goes for what is described in this link:=>...
http://www.thegleam.com/ke5fx/crt/sencrt.pdf

So the bottom line for me here is:=>...
Time to give the info in post #29 serious consideration...

Once again;...
It's your TV....
It's your money....
It's your call !!!

Have a GREAT day & weekend.... Sly

....

Later...Ron.M.... Cool

...
Veteran & Retired TV technician

Ron.M
Veteran

Dec 9, 2012, 8:50 PM

Post #40 of 50 (4782 views)
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jayaram_c;.....

As Peter Falk's Columbo would say;...
"Just one more thing"....

Previously before this train got sidetracked , I asked for;=>.....(Post #12)..

Quote

When you get to the RGB jungle IC , the R , G & B output pins should read almost the same dc volts...
If there is a large difference in one of the readings , the IC is bad..

This could be important...
There IS a remote possibility that this may be bad....
On the CRT module is connector CN701....
Using pin#5 as ground , read the dc volts on pins #2 , 3 & 4...
Those go to the real "jungle" IC that I asked for earlier...
PLEASE post readings...

THANKS... Smile

...

Have a GREAT weekend.... Sly

...

Later...Ron.M.... Cool

...
Veteran & Retired TV technician

mel
Veteran

Dec 9, 2012, 11:33 PM

Post #41 of 50 (4762 views)
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Re: [Ron.M] Sony Wega KV-HP212M83 greenish retrace line with 2 blinks [In reply to]	Can't Post

Just another "one more thing" I'm not sure if we ever got an answer to what happens when the CRT board is disconnected fron the CRT. If it doesn't shut down, that would automatically pinpoint the CRT as the source of the problem Unsure

jayaram_c
New User

Dec 10, 2012, 3:48 AM

Post #42 of 50 (4755 views)
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Re: [Ron.M] Sony Wega KV-HP212M83 greenish retrace line with 2 blinks [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Ron/Mel,

Here is another link for the PCB.

https://www.yousendit.com/...JiYUltSyswVW5FdzhUQw

https://www.yousendit.com/...JiYUltSytFd2NYRHRVag

To give highlights...

I have completely unsoldered the CRT pins and removed the C board from CRT now. If I remove the C board from CRT there is no shutdown and sound works normal.

In other cases if I remove the 200v alone with C board connected there shutdown doesn't happen.

I have even tried to open all the cathode resistors, but doesn't help where the shutdown happens with green raster and flyback lines as usual.

Also i hope you remember that it suddenly worked in middle of my troubleshooting where I tried to remove short using 5v Tongue

and tapping the CRT. If any component was a problem i believe it could have not worked in between for 10 min.

As you said I would really afraid going near the faulty CRT when switched ON as anything could happen. I have posted them just for reference. We have to finalize the problem and the work towards the resolution.

(This post was edited by jayaram_c on Dec 10, 2012, 3:49 AM)

Ron.M
Veteran

Dec 10, 2012, 5:45 AM

Post #43 of 50 (4749 views)
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Re: [jayaram_c] Sony Wega KV-HP212M83 greenish retrace line with 2 blinks [In reply to]	Can't Post

mel;.....

Quote

I'm not sure if we ever got an answer to what happens when the CRT board is disconnected fron the CRT.

We did;=>...

Quote

I have removed the C board from the CRT and now the system runs with sound and without shutdown.

From post #27..^^^

Quote

If it doesn't shut down, that would automatically pinpoint the CRT as the source of the problem Unsure

Most of the time , YES...
There have been times that the socket & other parts were bad causing shutdown...
I've had RGB Demod ICs go bad & do this exact thing....
Thanks for your input... Smile

..

jayaram_c;....

Quote

I have completely unsoldered the CRT pins and removed the C board from CRT now.

I believe you should be able to just slide the module & socket off the CRT in ONE piece...
You just haven't figured out how yet.... Unsure

...

Quote

We have to finalize the problem and the work towards the resolution.

I offered you solution in post #29...
IF you can find the courage to do as I asked in post #40 , we'd have a 98% positive answer to the problem barring all these tangentenial side tracks...
That being;=>...
Read the GD voltages & POST them !!!

Quote

If any component was a problem i believe it could have not worked in between for 10 min.

I have been doing this for OVER 45 YEARS & I HAVE seen MANY times that that happens...
There are tons of instances where a problem shows up when a component gets heated & FAILS !!!

BTW:....
Those 2 links are the same as I have in both the manuals I have for this affair...
Please , NO more...

Later...Ron.M... Cool

...
Veteran & Retired TV technician

(This post was edited by Ron.M on Dec 10, 2012, 5:49 AM)

jayaram_c
New User

Dec 11, 2012, 2:51 AM

Post #44 of 50 (4718 views)
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Quote

I have completely unsoldered the CRT pins and removed the C board from CRT now.
I believe you should be able to just slide the module & socket off the CRT in ONE piece...
You just haven't figured out how yet.......

It was stick hardly using some adhesive which I couldn't take it up, so thought of unsoldering it instead of playing at the tube...

Here is the pix of the symptom, but with green color... its starts with light green and brightness increases and shutdown...

http://i11.photobucket.com/...ted/Lisa_rasters.jpg

I will try to post the RGB voltage you have requested.

mel
Veteran

Dec 12, 2012, 12:09 AM

Post #45 of 50 (4686 views)
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I suspect that that "adhesive" is just RTV silicone which can easily be cut with sharp knife and peeled off.

jayaram_c
New User

Dec 15, 2012, 2:50 PM

Post #46 of 50 (4611 views)
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Re: [mel] Sony Wega KV-HP212M83 greenish retrace line with 2 blinks [In reply to]	Can't Post

I have done few things today...

When i heat the filament I can able to see the shorts between pin1 and KG.

I have used a 1.5kv cap and an external circuit to discharge between pin1 and KG few times and the short is released.

Now after connecting the C board and re-solder all the pins, the system is running normal with raster and OCD.

But the problem is I am getting a spark near one of the pin (white socket that connects the board and CRT pins) while switching ON. And while I switch off there are 2 color dots appearing in center of the screen.

I believe the spark could be problem with the contact point which I need to work out.

What could be the reason for the color dots (green and red i believe) while the system is power off.

http://www.network54.com/...e+use+some+help+plz-

(This post was edited by jayaram_c on Dec 15, 2012, 2:52 PM)

Ron.M
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Dec 15, 2012, 7:06 PM

Post #47 of 50 (4583 views)
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jayaram_c;.....

Nothing I love more than giving solid , detailed & accurate instructions & have that a-hole run off & not only ignore my help , but do something dangerous & destructive to what could have been a happy solution !!!!
By your foolishness , you have damaged the CRT & made matters worse.....
You are on your way to making this TV a 21" boat anchor or doorstop...
Had you done as I asked , you would not be complicating a relatively simple fix.....
So as they say on "Shark Tank" , I'm OUT !!!!....

What the HELL does that link for H-Stat have to do with this problem !!!!

All yours , mel , have fun !!!

Bye , bye....Ron.M.... Cool

....
Veteran & Retired TV technician

(This post was edited by Ron.M on Dec 15, 2012, 8:28 PM)

mel
Veteran

Dec 15, 2012, 11:17 PM

Post #48 of 50 (4575 views)
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Re: [jayaram_c] Sony Wega KV-HP212M83 greenish retrace line with 2 blinks [In reply to]	Can't Post

Go back and check all of the unnecessary soldering that you have done to make sure that they are complete, good adherence and no solder bridges. I have no idea what you mean about the sparking but the dots when shutdown are caused by slow high voltage bleed off during shutdown. That should be immediate but apparently you screwed up something during all of your unneccessary forays into the high voltage section. At this point, I can give you no further advice. GOOD LUCK Unsure

jayaram_c
New User

Dec 16, 2012, 4:37 AM

Post #49 of 50 (4543 views)
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Re: [Ron.M] Sony Wega KV-HP212M83 greenish retrace line with 2 blinks [In reply to]	Can't Post

Ron and Mel,

Actually that's not my intention. pl don't mistake.

I am worried whether the problem has reached your correctly and hence i am trying to give some clues where ever possible. I am highly afraid to touch the set while power ON and hence I haven't given you the RGB voltage details.

Anyway thanks and appreciate your guidance so far and hope I can leave the set up and running.

Thanks guys.

mel
Veteran

Dec 16, 2012, 6:05 AM

Post #50 of 50 (4540 views)
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Re: [jayaram_c] Sony Wega KV-HP212M83 greenish retrace line with 2 blinks [In reply to]	Can't Post

Actually RGB voltages have nothing to do with your original problem. You have way other thought this problem from day one and yes it is safe to continue to operate it. After following my last recommendation, put it back together and quit messing with it.

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