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Crumbtrail TV Forums: TV Equipment: VCR Repair Forum:
No picture on commercial tapes; home-recorded ones are fine

 

 


RussLA
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Sep 8, 2009, 3:27 AM

Post #1 of 12 (2992 views)
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No picture on commercial tapes; home-recorded ones are fine Can't Post

Boy, this really has me stumped. I have a Panasonic VCR, model PV-8661 (analog). My TV is a Mitsuba 3700S (old analog). Suddenly my commercial tapes (all old analog) have no picture (just snow), but the sound is fine. However, tapes I recorded myself (back before the digital TV changeover) play fine (both picture and sound). I tried several commercial tapes and several home-made tapes, and none of the commercial ones had any picture while all of the home-made ones were fine.

I disconnected my antenna to eliminate any possible digital signal problems, so I just have the VCR connected to the TV with no other connections. I even tried covering the write-protect notch on one of the commercial tapes to see if that might be the problem, but no change.

All of the commercial tapes I tried are ones I've played many times before with no problem.

Any ideas why the commercial tapes all have no picture but the home-made tapes play fine? The only difference I can think of is the copy protection on the commercial tapes. Could that be the problem? As I said, I've played all of those commercial tapes many times before with no problem.



jts1957
Veteran


Sep 8, 2009, 3:58 AM

Post #2 of 12 (2989 views)
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Re: [RussLA] No picture on commercial tapes; home-recorded ones are fine [In reply to] Can't Post

How may Video Heads?(I presume 4) Connected via Ant & Ch.3/4 OR Audio/Video RCA cables? (I presume Ant Ch.3/4).


Commercial tapes = Most likely "SP" (1 movie/tape)
Home-recorded = ? Most likely "EP" (3 movies/tape).
SP heads could be broken/worn out, while EP (aka SLP) are fine.


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Location: Far, Far Away


techchris
Veteran

Sep 8, 2009, 6:58 AM

Post #3 of 12 (2987 views)
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Re: [RussLA] No picture on commercial tapes; home-recorded ones are fine [In reply to] Can't Post

when you say no picture do you mean the screen is black or can you see something?


jts1957
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Sep 8, 2009, 7:12 AM

Post #4 of 12 (2986 views)
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Re: [techchris] No picture on commercial tapes; home-recorded ones are fine [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Suddenly my commercial tapes (all old analog) have no picture (just snow), but the sound is fine.


I had NO problem reading this sentence.Wink


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Location: Far, Far Away


RussLA
New User

Sep 8, 2009, 8:29 AM

Post #5 of 12 (2983 views)
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Re: [jts1957] No picture on commercial tapes; home-recorded ones are fine [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes, 4 heads and connected via Ant & Ch.3/4.

What I meant by snow was that there was no picture at all.

I think you may have solved it. All the tapes that have no picture are SP and all that are fine are EP. I even have a couple of commercial tapes (actually they're short promo tapes for different products) that are EP and they are fine as well.

From what you say, the heads that are used for SP are different than for EP. Is that right? I didn't realize that.

One other thing I noticed is that on the SP tapes, as I fast-forward, the picture improves from total snow to a screen where you can see some of the picture (in color but distorted), and there are several horizontal bands of snow (each maybe 2" high). But then when you go back to Play, the total snow returns.

Are there shops that can replace some of the heads?


jts1957
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Sep 8, 2009, 8:34 AM

Post #6 of 12 (2981 views)
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Re: [RussLA] No picture on commercial tapes; home-recorded ones are fine [In reply to] Can't Post

Try cleaning them first. You've got nothing to lose!


http://www.searspartsdirect.com/...n%20to%20part%20list


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Location: Far, Far Away

(This post was edited by jts1957 on Sep 8, 2009, 8:53 AM)


RussLA
New User

Sep 9, 2009, 12:02 AM

Post #7 of 12 (2974 views)
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Re: [jts1957] No picture on commercial tapes; home-recorded ones are fine [In reply to] Can't Post

What's that link you gave me? There's no picture with it and it's called "upper cylinder."

Regarding cleaning the heads, what do you recommend? I've heard of a special cassette you can run through the VCR that's supposed to clean the heads. But a friend of mine (who was a real audiophile) claimed that a cleaning cassette actually did more harm than good.


jts1957
Veteran


Sep 9, 2009, 2:14 AM

Post #8 of 12 (2971 views)
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Re: [RussLA] No picture on commercial tapes; home-recorded ones are fine [In reply to] Can't Post

If the "SP" heads on the UPPER CYLINDER are "broken," nothing will help (or hurt). Cleaning cassette (wet "tape"-type "non-abrasive") used 2 - 3 times (as directed) - I haven't observed them doing any harm.

If you do obtain the replacement (shop around - part number should be in link - may be able to get cheaper), the replacement must be installed "correctly." Bring the two side-by-side, you should be able to spot some identifier (line, colors, etc.) like plus & minus on a battery, for example.


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Location: Far, Far Away


Barry777
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Jan 16, 2010, 6:53 PM

Post #9 of 12 (2876 views)
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Re: [RussLA] No picture on commercial tapes; home-recorded ones are fine [In reply to] Can't Post

No offense intended, but I would question the ability of a novice (my guess since you asked for head cleaning advice) to successfully replace video heads, especially without a few pieces of test gear, an eccentricity gauge and the service manual to perform any needed minor adjustments afterwards. Admittedly, some heads can be changed out and will work just fine, but others will require minor adjustments to the tape path and possibly even a few small tweaks in the electronic circuits to match the new heads with the rest of the unit.

It's extremely unlikely that the simple action of playing tapes would break the heads, so here is the way I've been cleaning video heads for a few decades. Keep in mind that my technique is not recommended in any service manual, but is a bit more thorough.

Poke a finger through a clean (and discardable) T shirt and dip it in alcohol. Household isopropyl alcohol works just fine - or Everclear if you're a heavy drinker! Then, VERY, VERY LIGHTLY "touch" them (the word "rub" suggests too much force) up and down 30 or 40 times. Virtually all service manuals say never to rub up and down as this could break off the fragile and narrow ferrite wafer that constitutes the physical part of the head. But the sides of the actual head are more likely to have sharp edges for the T shirt to catch on than the top and bottom of the head - thus, I always "touch" up and down rather than side to side - especially since the head gap is vertical; rubbing up and down is less likely to let material get lodged in the gap should the epoxy that covers it be worn away and the gap exposed.

Make sure you're addressing the actual heads; they look like narrow slots in the middle of the head drum, each about 3/16" wide and extremely small from top to bottom. If you can see any evidence of dirt at all on the T shirt, that means the video heads were extremely dirty (in most cases, you can restore the picture - but still not be able to see the dirt that was removed). If you can't feel the heads protruding slightly from the head drum while cleaning, then they could be very worn and possibly at the end of their expected life - but video heads generally last a good 5000 hours, so you'd have to watch tons and tons of movies to wear them out.

Proper VCR cleaning also includes the rest of the upper and lower drum, as well as the tape guides and audio/control head - but the quick operation described above will at least tell you if the problem is very dirty heads. Whatever you do, don't use anything with loose and sheddable material on the video heads, as this can cause fabric to be left on the heads and lodged in the gap which kills the picture - NO Q Tips allowed here. As far as head cleaning tapes go, they are good for one thing: if you're in the middle of a movie, lose the picture and want a quick fix to see the rest of the movie without opening the machine. Other than that, they are completely useless and only redistribute the dirt - they don't really remove anything. They can even take dirt from the erase head, back tension pawl and entrance guide and transfer it to the video heads, making them even dirtier! I never, ever use any type of cleaning tapes - when they are included in a lot of movies I purchase, they go straight in the trash, even when they are brand new and still sealed.

If you end up replacing the heads, good luck. But without a eccentricity or head protrusion gauge (used only to measure drum runout in this instance), you could end up with a head drum that wobbles a tiny bit, enough to make the picture move from side to side, jitter or cause other viewing problems. Also, if the original head assembly is not made and adjusted exactly the same as the new head, you could have trouble with the dihedral (heads not being exactly 180 degrees apart), headswitching point or a host of other minor (but aggravating) ailments. And these days, it's unlikely that you could find a local shop that is still set up for critical VCR work. This means paying shipping both ways - and the labor charges - to have it professionally adjusted somewhere. If it turns out that the SP heads are shot, you would likely be better off getting another VCR from Goodwill for 10 or 20 bucks. Most of them work just fine, needing only an idler tire and maybe a belt or two for reliability over the next several years.

Good luck!
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Barry Fone - VCR Repair hobbyist and professional FAA Repair Station Avionics Bench Technician (top level). TEST EQUIPMENT: (4) Sencore VC93 VCR Analyzers, (11) Tentel gauges, Sencore VA48 and (2) VA62 Video Analyzers, Sigma Electronics TSG-375 NTSC/SMPTE Video Generator, several VCR Alignment Tapes, plus countless Oscilloscopes, Frequency Counters, Wow and Flutter Meters, Distortion Analyzers, Vectorscope, 136-channel Logic Analyzer, Signature Analyzer . . . . VIDEO GEAR: (6) JVC BR-S822U's, (3) JVC BR-7000 series, (3) JVC BR-S500U, (2) JVC BR-S800U, JVC GR-800U and (2) GR-860U Editing Controllers, Sony FXE-100 Video Switcher/Effects Generator, (5) Time Code Generator/Readers, (1) Sony SLO-1800 (Beta), (2) Alesis ADAT-XT, (1) Sony DXC-1200 TV Camera, Pioneer VP-1000 Laser Disc Player plus many consumer grade Beta and VHS VCR's. Passionate electronics enthusiast since 1973...most anything except computers. Check out my collection at www.barrys8trackrepair.com/MyVideoGear.html

(This post was edited by Barry777 on Jan 16, 2010, 7:25 PM)


RussLA
New User

Jan 16, 2010, 11:03 PM

Post #10 of 12 (2867 views)
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Re: [Barry777] No picture on commercial tapes; home-recorded ones are fine [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks, Barry. I am indeed a complete novice, so I haven't tried any replacing or even cleaning of the heads. As it turned out, I had a second VCR that I've been using ever since. But I appreciate your taking the time to explain things so thoroughly.

By the way, do you have an opinion on a good choice in a DVD player/recorder?

Russ


Barry777
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Jan 17, 2010, 1:53 AM

Post #11 of 12 (2864 views)
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Re: [RussLA] No picture on commercial tapes; home-recorded ones are fine [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Russ,

That is an interesting question, as the whole reason I got back into VCR's is because of my frustration with DVD technology. DVD's themselves are so susceptible to scratches, clouding and general flimisiness, and the players so critical as to electrical alignment - these things combined add up to make the entire DVD format a very precarious one, and one that results in the fact that there is probably no DVD player on the consumer market that will work much longer than 3 years, if that. As soon as they drift the slightest bit out of alignment, you might as well replace it as it would be more expensive to repair - or at least purchase the service manual, required test equipment and the manufacturer's test disc so you can keep it up to snuff every few months.

I got so tired of popping in a DVD, waiting anxiously for 20 seconds while it tries to track, then seeing that dreaded "Disc Error" message. Or, freezing up in the middle of a movie, and that aggravating digital checkerboard pattern that's telling you "I'm trying to process too much information and need a few seconds to recover". Another problem is that recordable DVD's use a dye instead of an aluminum medium on which to burn the information, meaning that the life expectancy of a home-burned DVD is around 5 years before it starts to act weird (this information was gleaned from a few experts here and there).

Of course, some things these days are available ONLY on DVD, so this suggests two options: Either buy the absolute cheapest player you can find (knowing you will only get a few years out of any consumer grade player), or take the plunge and purchase a professional duplicator, along with the service manual and test equipment required to align it regularly. The consumer DVD players, no doubt, don't have nearly as many internal adjustments as they used to (to save production cost), so they become dumpster feed when they start to drift. A professional duplicator is designed for continuous heavy use, with the ability to get inside and perform routine maintenance, and likely made to last many years. Keep in mind that I'm by no means an expert on DVD players; my knowledge is based on my familiarity with the trends in the electronics industry, experience in factories and lengthy discussions with engineers - guys who design the stuff to fit into the company's budget. There may indeed be a high quality, rugged and long-lasting consumer-grade DVD player on the market that has proven itself, but I pretty much doubt it. The demands of the general public for low price simply prohibit manufacturers from spending too much money on design and production.

You might surf the DVD repair forum for experienced opinions also; they will surely be more educated than my own. But I'm a firm believer in buying professional gear for most anything, as 20 year old pro gear still outlasts a brand new, low-priced unit in almost every case - with some initial and periodic maintenance of course, but at least you CAN work on the old stuff. Professional stuff costs a lot more, but pays for itself in the long run and provides much greater satisfaction with less hassle and aggravation.

Good luck in your search!
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Barry Fone - VCR Repair hobbyist and professional FAA Repair Station Avionics Bench Technician (top level). TEST EQUIPMENT: (4) Sencore VC93 VCR Analyzers, (11) Tentel gauges, Sencore VA48 and (2) VA62 Video Analyzers, Sigma Electronics TSG-375 NTSC/SMPTE Video Generator, several VCR Alignment Tapes, plus countless Oscilloscopes, Frequency Counters, Wow and Flutter Meters, Distortion Analyzers, Vectorscope, 136-channel Logic Analyzer, Signature Analyzer . . . . VIDEO GEAR: (6) JVC BR-S822U's, (3) JVC BR-7000 series, (3) JVC BR-S500U, (2) JVC BR-S800U, JVC GR-800U and (2) GR-860U Editing Controllers, Sony FXE-100 Video Switcher/Effects Generator, (5) Time Code Generator/Readers, (1) Sony SLO-1800 (Beta), (2) Alesis ADAT-XT, (1) Sony DXC-1200 TV Camera, Pioneer VP-1000 Laser Disc Player plus many consumer grade Beta and VHS VCR's. Passionate electronics enthusiast since 1973...most anything except computers. Check out my collection at www.barrys8trackrepair.com/MyVideoGear.html

(This post was edited by Barry777 on Jan 17, 2010, 2:03 AM)


RussLA
New User

Jan 17, 2010, 2:24 AM

Post #12 of 12 (2860 views)
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Re: [Barry777] No picture on commercial tapes; home-recorded ones are fine [In reply to] Can't Post

Barry,

Very interesting. I've posted a few times in the DVD forum, but it's been several months. As I remember, Panasonic was one brand a couple of people seemed to favor. At some point I'll probably get a DVD player/recorder, but it's not a priority at the moment. Thanks for your feedback.

Russ

 
 
 


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