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Crumbtrail TV Forums: TV Equipment: Projection TV Forum:
RCA Model:R52WM24 Chassis:ITC222, fixed convergence, now dead

 

 


philnotfil
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Jan 22, 2011, 3:58 AM

Post #1 of 25 (10198 views)
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RCA Model:R52WM24 Chassis:ITC222, fixed convergence, now dead Can't Post

Good Morning,
Got a new to me TV from a friend, RCA R52WM24. It had convergence issues, he wanted a flat screen. Did a little research, replaced fuse FL231, reflowed flyback transformer, success! Watched a terrible basketball game and went to bed. Came home from work today to find out that when the wife and kids tried to use the tv, it didn't work. I came home and the tv did in fact not work. When you push the power button it turns green for about three seconds and then goes out.

It had a known problem (bad convergence and no convergence option in setup menu). I fixed it. It worked. Now it doesn't work. I messed up something else while I was in there? There was another problem that waited until after I finished two hours of TV watching to show itself?

What do I try next?



philnotfil
New User

Jan 24, 2011, 1:24 AM

Post #2 of 25 (10182 views)
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Re: [philnotfil] RCA Model:R52WM24 Chassis:ITC222, fixed convergence, now dead [In reply to] Can't Post

Well, that was interesting. I found a copy of a service manual online (http://www.epanorama.net/...C%20222_FSG_2006.pdf). It has a nice troubleshooting flowchart. One of the first steps is monitoring the CLOCK and DATA lines as AC power is applied. So I set everything up and plugged the TV in. They did what they were supposed to. When I went around to the front of the TV, imagine my surprise to find that it had just turned on and gone its merry way. Three days and it rose from the dead on a Sunday? (unfortunately the next basketball game I wanted to watch was on Saturday, at least they played well even if I didn't get to watch it)

Something is storing power and needs to drain before the TV can power up properly? Intermittent problem?

I was able to go to the service menu and pull 5 error codes (with counts).
36 (58)- Tube Is Still Not Warm After Warmup Time
33 (163)- Safety Circuit Is Active
84 (15)- Tube Type Is RP, But Convergence Was Not Detected
37 (5)- Vertical Problem
34 (3)- Horizontal Flyback Problem

Any suggestions on next steps? Should I just wait for it to stop working again, and then run through the troubleshooting flowchart?


ManyaCarb
New User

Jan 24, 2011, 4:05 AM

Post #3 of 25 (10177 views)
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Re: [philnotfil] RCA Model:R52WM24 Chassis:ITC222, fixed convergence, now dead [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi
I was reading your first post and you mentioned that you changed a fused (shorted?). Do you know the reason why that fuse shorted? How old is the set? Any electrolytic capacitors look suspicious? I would start looking at some caps , if any of them present any leaks, I would change them. Sometimes they look ok outside, but at the bottom you can see they went bad. I know is a annoying task, but if you like your tv it would be worth it. Just an idea, good luck :)


jts1957
Veteran


Jan 24, 2011, 10:58 AM

Post #4 of 25 (10175 views)
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Re: [ManyaCarb] RCA Model:R52WM24 Chassis:ITC222, fixed convergence, now dead [In reply to] Can't Post

There are as many reasons that a fuse will short as there are idiots, like you (ManyaCarb: About 53 results (0.05 seconds)) , who believe they short.

Remember, only change fuses that, like this clown, blows.Angelic


-------------------------
Location: Far, Far Away


ManyaCarb
New User

Jan 24, 2011, 6:40 PM

Post #5 of 25 (10168 views)
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Re: [jts1957] RCA Model:R52WM24 Chassis:ITC222, fixed convergence, now dead [In reply to] Can't Post

jts:
Just trying to give some help to the guy who posted. No need to insult or talk that way Sir. Sad to hear that from you a veteran TV technician.
You have a nice day
Manya


jts1957
Veteran


Jan 24, 2011, 7:59 PM

Post #6 of 25 (10166 views)
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Re: [ManyaCarb] RCA Model:R52WM24 Chassis:ITC222, fixed convergence, now dead [In reply to] Can't Post

Considering the erroneous information plus its source ...


-------------------------
Location: Far, Far Away

(This post was edited by jts1957 on Jan 24, 2011, 8:00 PM)


Ron.M
Veteran


Jan 25, 2011, 8:24 PM

Post #7 of 25 (10153 views)
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Re: [philnotfil] RCA Model:R52WM24 Chassis:ITC222, fixed convergence, now dead [In reply to] Can't Post

philnotfil;....


Quote
I was able to go to the service menu and pull 5 error codes (with counts).
36 (58)- Tube Is Still Not Warm After Warmup Time
33 (163)- Safety Circuit Is Active
84 (15)- Tube Type Is RP, But Convergence Was Not Detected
37 (5)- Vertical Problem
34 (3)- Horizontal Flyback Problem

TOO many error codes & probably waaaay out of date to be able to sort out as recent....
My suggestion would be to go back into the "Service Menu" & clear out those old codes....
Then wait for the new one(s) to arrive....
That usually happens when you first turn the TV on....
Some of those codes you listed above are not the same as I have in my manual....
No matter....
Lets see what the new one(s) are.....


BTW;...ManyaCarb seems to be a bit of an inexperienced jerk & not to be taken seriously....Unsure.....

GOOD LUCK.....Sly.....


Later...Ron.M....Cool....
Veteran & Retired TV technician

(This post was edited by Ron.M on Jan 25, 2011, 8:29 PM)


philnotfil
New User

Jan 26, 2011, 1:58 AM

Post #8 of 25 (10146 views)
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Re: [Ron.M] RCA Model:R52WM24 Chassis:ITC222, fixed convergence, now dead [In reply to] Can't Post

I tried to clear the codes, but the TV didn't seem to do anything when I selected that option. When I rechecked the codes yesterday 33 was the only to have increased in number, so I'll consider that the "active" one. According to the link above error code 33 means the safety circuit is active. Which makes sense since that is what is shutting down the machine before it hurts itself.

Oh yeah, it didn't turn on today, I have the deflection board out, and will be inspecting the entire thing. If I don't see anything I'll stick it back in and go through the troubleshooting flowchart and see how far I get.


philnotfil
New User

Jan 26, 2011, 4:48 AM

Post #9 of 25 (10144 views)
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Re: [philnotfil] RCA Model:R52WM24 Chassis:ITC222, fixed convergence, now dead [In reply to] Can't Post

Had these instructions (http://omnihypernet.com/...uctions_Dead_set.htm) showing common problem spots, so I reflowed and checked components.

CP130 is showing no increase in resistance when multimeter is applied.

I'll check back in after I replace CP130 and let you know if that did any good.


(This post was edited by philnotfil on Jan 26, 2011, 4:53 AM)


Ron.M
Veteran


Jan 26, 2011, 6:59 PM

Post #10 of 25 (10137 views)
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Re: [philnotfil] RCA Model:R52WM24 Chassis:ITC222, fixed convergence, now dead [In reply to] Can't Post

philnotfil;.....




Quote
CP130 is showing no increase in resistance when multimeter is applied.

Hate to burst your bubble here , but , CP130 is NOT a resistor !!!!
According to my generic manual for the ITC222 chassis , CP130 is a 220 mfd 35 vdc lytic cap on the 16 vdc line that starts off pin 14 of LP050 in the power supply.....
UNLESS the cap IS bad , you won't see a resistance reading on that cap.....
You need an ESR meter OR a cap checker to check that cap....


EDIT;...
According to my service manual error code 33 is "BV500 not connected"....
BV500 is (I THINK !!) a multi blade pin connector that can be easily damaged when disconnected & then re-connected hap-hazardly....
This connector is probably one of the ones that you disconnected to make the initial repair....
In the pix below is the location of BV500.....
CAREFULLY disconnect it & check that ALL bladed pins are flat & straight across the way they should be....
IF any are bent or pushed aside , use a needle-nosed pliers carefully to re-align....





PS:....
Would you be willing to give me a link to the manual you are using for those error codes ????
THANKS....Sly.....



GOOD LUCK.....Sly.....


Later....Ron.M....Cool....
Veteran & Retired TV technician

(This post was edited by Ron.M on Jan 26, 2011, 7:33 PM)


philnotfil
New User

Jan 26, 2011, 8:03 PM

Post #11 of 25 (10124 views)
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Re: [Ron.M] RCA Model:R52WM24 Chassis:ITC222, fixed convergence, now dead [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
According to my generic manual for the ITC222 chassis , CP130 is a 220 mfd 35 vdc lytic cap on the 16 vdc line that starts off pin 14 of LP050 in the power supply.

I love it when the manual agrees with reality :) That is what it is on my board as well.


Quote
UNLESS the cap IS bad , you won't see a resistance reading on that cap.


I was taught (many years ago, and never used it outside of the classroom until now) that you could check capacitors by measuring resistance, a functioning capacitor will start off with low resistance and gradually increase as it stores electricity. This held true for all of the other capacitors that I checked. I don't know if they are within spec, just that they are charging.


Quote
According to my service manual error code 33 is "BV500 not connected"....
BV500 is (I THINK !!) a multi blade pin connector that can be easily damaged when disconnected & then re-connected hap-hazardly....
This connector is probably one of the ones that you disconnected to make the initial repair....


I haven't touched BV500. The three connections on the small signal board that I disconnected were BV001, BP500, and BP501. I will reseat it and see if that helps.


Quote
Would you be willing to give me a link to the manual you are using for those error codes ?


Here is the service manual I have been using:
http://www.epanorama.net/...C%20222_FSG_2006.pdf

The manual seems to predate my particular model, but all of the information about the chassis has been accurate.


jts1957
Veteran


Jan 26, 2011, 8:10 PM

Post #12 of 25 (10123 views)
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Re: [Ron.M] RCA Model:R52WM24 Chassis:ITC222, fixed convergence, now dead [In reply to] Can't Post

Ron's losin' it (again). That's the second reference to that link in this thread.


-------------------------
Location: Far, Far Away


philnotfil
New User

Jan 26, 2011, 9:38 PM

Post #13 of 25 (10118 views)
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Re: [jts1957] RCA Model:R52WM24 Chassis:ITC222, fixed convergence, now dead [In reply to] Can't Post

Three posts from jts1957, and still nothing useful :)


jts1957
Veteran


Jan 26, 2011, 9:44 PM

Post #14 of 25 (10115 views)
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Re: [philnotfil] RCA Model:R52WM24 Chassis:ITC222, fixed convergence, now dead [In reply to] Can't Post

1) Not MY thread.
2) ALL Three responses were NOT directed towards: "Re: [philnotfil] ....".


-------------------------
Location: Far, Far Away


Ron.M
Veteran


Jan 26, 2011, 10:40 PM

Post #15 of 25 (10112 views)
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Re: [philnotfil] RCA Model:R52WM24 Chassis:ITC222, fixed convergence, now dead [In reply to] Can't Post

philnotfil;.....


Quote
I love it when the manual agrees with reality :) That is what it is on my board as well.

Are you refering to my manual OR yours ????
The manual you gave me below has NO schematics ....


A little technicallity here to clarify...
1st off , the link that you gave me twice is for a "Field Service Guide" & NOT a true "Service" manual....
There appears to be several , if not many , differences between the 2 manuals....
I have both manuals...One is from your link (THANKS)....
One I already had....
The manual you have , I think , is not going to be of much help....
The manual I have is for a "direct" view ITC222 TV chassis...
It is in many ways similar to the one in your 52" TV....
I don't understand much of what that "Field Service Guide" is for anyway....(Most of the info is over my head)....
That said;....

Quote
I was taught (many years ago, and never used it outside of the classroom until now) that you could check capacitors by measuring resistance, a functioning capacitor will start off with low resistance and gradually increase as it stores electricity. This held true for all of the other capacitors that I checked. I don't know if they are within spec, just that they are charging.

Many years ago when TVs were made with vacuum tubes that cap method came out....
By doing that check , you accomplish nothing....
All that is telling you is that there is some ability by that cap to accept a charge , & that's all....
There are many caps that will not show a charging effect on a meter & still be good....
Your last sentence above is 100% CORRECT !!!!


Quote
The manual seems to predate my particular model, but all of the information about the chassis has been accurate.

I STRONGLY disagree.....
The manual & the TV were both made in 2005....
Based on what I see with the error codes puts the rest in doubt....
In other words , I found the error codes to be erroneous...
Sorta like when someone lies to you one time , do you trust them again ????

After you re-seat those connectors , try to clear the old error codes out again....


Now about jts1957.....
He is a bit quirky , BUT , a GOOD chap....
AND a GREAT tech !!!!
Take notice of what he said to ManyaCarb (Two of the 3 posts) concerning some badly given misleading advice to you...
If he wants to contribute to this thread , he will...
Right now , he's watching me/us squirm with this problem....Unsure....
He & I exchange quips , correct each other etc....All in a friendly manner....



GOOD LUCK.....Sly....


Later....Ron.M....Cool....
Veteran & Retired TV technician


Ron.M
Veteran


Jan 26, 2011, 10:50 PM

Post #16 of 25 (10110 views)
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Re: [jts1957] RCA Model:R52WM24 Chassis:ITC222, fixed convergence, now dead [In reply to] Can't Post

jts1957;.....


You beat me to the post....Wink


Quote
1) Not MY thread.
2) ALL Three responses were NOT directed towards: "Re: [philnotfil] ....".

1) Hasn't stopped you before & shouldn't stop you now...
As I said in the past , you ARE welcome to input ANYTIME !!!!
Nutin's changed.....
2)... Already clarified....


BTW;....

Quote
Ron's losin' it (again). That's the second reference to that link in this thread.

Hey , my birthday was last Sat....
Born in "41" , you do the math...
I also was trying to see if he was using a "Service" manual & not a "Field Service Guide"....
That's why I asked for a link to "manual"....
Sneaky , I know....


Have a GREAT day....Sly.....



Later...Ron.M....Cool....
Veteran & Retired TV technician


philnotfil
New User

Jan 26, 2011, 11:23 PM

Post #17 of 25 (10106 views)
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Re: [Ron.M] RCA Model:R52WM24 Chassis:ITC222, fixed convergence, now dead [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Quote
I love it when the manual agrees with reality :) That is what it is on my board as well.
Are you refering to my manual OR yours ????


What was in your manual matched what I was seeing on the board in front of me.


Quote
1st off , the link that you gave me twice is for a "Field Service Guide" & NOT a true "Service" manual.

True.

Quote
The manual you have , I think , is not going to be of much help.

I'm hoping that once I've replaced things that are obviously and generically wrong, I can use the troubleshooting flowchart in that field service guide to identify any remaining problems.


Quote
Many years ago when TVs were made with vacuum tubes that cap method came out....
By doing that check , you accomplish nothing....
All that is telling you is that there is some ability by that cap to accept a charge , & that's all....
There are many caps that will not show a charging effect on a meter & still be good....
Your last sentence above is 100% CORRECT !!!!


So a capacitor increasing in resistance is taking a charge, but a capacitor not increasing in resistance may or may not be taking a charge? Now I'm confused. CP135, right next to the problem child is the same (220mfd, 35v) and shows the expected increase in resistance. What would allow CP130 to not show this increase in resistance and still be functional? Should I go straight to the troubleshooting flowchart, or wait until I replace this capacitor? If it really is bad I might as well fix it first, if the lack of increasing resistance doesn't mean it is bad then I may as well start the troubleshooting process. I think :)


Quote
Based on what I see with the error codes puts the rest in doubt....
In other words , I found the error codes to be erroneous...


Hmm, I find the "safety circuit is active" error to be a more plausible interpretation of error code 33 than the BV500. It does seem to be the safety circuit shutting down the TV.

Reseated BV500 (a ribbon), still dead TV.


philnotfil
New User

Jan 26, 2011, 11:26 PM

Post #18 of 25 (10106 views)
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Re: [Ron.M] RCA Model:R52WM24 Chassis:ITC222, fixed convergence, now dead [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
If he wants to contribute to this thread , he will...
Right now , he's watching me/us squirm with this problem....Unsure....
He & I exchange quips , correct each other etc....All in a friendly manner....


I should have used a bigger smiley when I was ribbing him :)


Ron.M
Veteran


Jan 27, 2011, 2:02 AM

Post #19 of 25 (10100 views)
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Re: [philnotfil] RCA Model:R52WM24 Chassis:ITC222, fixed convergence, now dead [In reply to] Can't Post

philnotfil;...


Quote
I can use the troubleshooting flowchart in that field service guide to identify any remaining problems.

Fine with me..Go for it....



Quote
So a capacitor increasing in resistance is taking a charge, but a capacitor not increasing in resistance may or may not be taking a charge? Now I'm confused. CP135, right next to the problem child is the same (220mfd, 35v) and shows the expected increase in resistance. What would allow CP130 to not show this increase in resistance and still be functional? Should I go straight to the troubleshooting flowchart, or wait until I replace this capacitor? If it really is bad I might as well fix it first, if the lack of increasing resistance doesn't mean it is bad then I may as well start the troubleshooting process. I think :)

Let's clear this up once & for all.......
You are NOT reading resistance...PERIOD !!!!
You are watching a cap absorb microamps of electrons that are reading thru your meter....
When your meter is set to ohms , the meter puts out a low voltage across the probes...
When a RESISTOR is connected across the probes , a mini current flows thru the resistor...
The meter's circuit detects the voltage drop across that resistor & converts that to a reading that you get....
Depending on the amount of the drop will change the reading accordingly.,....
IF the drop is varying as it does when you hook up a cap , so does the reading....
You are seeing the cap take a CHARGE & when it reaches it's limit , the reading stops....
IF you read ohms at that point , chances are that the cap IS bad....
Is this settled now ????



Quote
Now I'm confused. CP135, right next to the problem child is the same (220mfd, 35v) and shows the expected increase in resistance. What would allow CP130 to not show this increase in resistance and still be functional?

Let me make this CLEAR....CP130 IS bad....
It is a fairly large cap (220 mfd) & should swing your meter thru the ohms range....
The best way to check lytic caps is with a ESR meter & a cap checker...
Both too costly for you to invest in at this time....



Quote
Hmm, I find the "safety circuit is active" error to be a more plausible interpretation of error code 33 than the BV500. It does seem to be the safety circuit shutting down the TV.

You are free to believe what you so choose...BUT , I STRONGLY disagree.....
You listed 5 different error codes....

MINE ARE:=>....
1)=#36...My manual says;..."Tube gets not warm in time"...
2)=#33...My manual says;..."BV500 not connected"..
3)=#84...NOT in my manual (Its for direct view)....
4)=#37...My manual says;..."V_Guard does not available"...
5)=#34...My manual says;..."PH12_REF not available".....

YOURS ARE;=>...
36 (58)- Tube Is Still Not Warm After Warmup Time << We agree !!!
33 (163)- Safety Circuit Is Active << Different result...
84 (15)- Tube Type Is RP, But Convergence Was Not Detected
37 (5)- Vertical Problem << Same as mine...
34 (3)- Horizontal Flyback Problem << Not sure what mine is....BUT , could cause yours to shut-down...


Items 2,3,4 & 5 in my list are ALL reasonable causes...

ANY of the above can cause shut-down....
That IS why I asked you to CLEAR the old error codes out....
We need to start fresh...


EDIT:...

Quote
I should have used a bigger smiley when I was ribbing him :)

They're right at the left side of your reply box...Just click on the one you want to use....Wink...

Have fun & GOOD LUCK....Sly....

Later....Ron.M....Cool....
Veteran & Retired TV technician

(This post was edited by Ron.M on Jan 27, 2011, 2:05 AM)


jts1957
Veteran


Jan 27, 2011, 4:15 AM

Post #20 of 25 (10095 views)
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Re: [philnotfil] RCA Model:R52WM24 Chassis:ITC222, fixed convergence, now dead [In reply to] Can't Post

Or go out and bring back one of your own ...



-------------------------
Location: Far, Far Away


philnotfil
New User

Jan 27, 2011, 5:55 PM

Post #21 of 25 (10090 views)
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Re: [Ron.M] RCA Model:R52WM24 Chassis:ITC222, fixed convergence, now dead [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Let's clear this up once & for all.......
You are NOT reading resistance...PERIOD !!!!
You are watching a cap absorb microamps of electrons that are reading thru your meter....
When your meter is set to ohms , the meter puts out a low voltage across the probes...
When a RESISTOR is connected across the probes , a mini current flows thru the resistor...
The meter's circuit detects the voltage drop across that resistor & converts that to a reading that you get....
Depending on the amount of the drop will change the reading accordingly.,....
IF the drop is varying as it does when you hook up a cap , so does the reading....
You are seeing the cap take a CHARGE & when it reaches it's limit , the reading stops....
IF you read ohms at that point , chances are that the cap IS bad....
Is this settled now ????


I'm not sure what our communication problem is. When I read what you said, and what I said, we said the same things. Set the multimeter to ohms, read the capacitor, if the reading increases, the capacitor is taking a charge. If the reading doesn't increase the capacitor is dead. Just because it is still capable of taking a charge doesn't mean that it is working well enough to do the job, and could still need to be replaced. If it isn't taking a charge, it definitely needs to be replaced.

Isn't that what we are both saying?

The electronics shop was closed by the time I got there yesterday, I should be able to pick up the capacitor today during lunch. We will see what happens tonight when I replace it.


Ron.M
Veteran


Jan 27, 2011, 7:01 PM

Post #22 of 25 (10089 views)
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Re: [philnotfil] RCA Model:R52WM24 Chassis:ITC222, fixed convergence, now dead [In reply to] Can't Post

philnotfil;....



Quote
I'm not sure what our communication problem is. When I read what you said, and what I said, we said the same things. Set the multimeter to ohms, read the capacitor, if the reading increases, the capacitor is taking a charge. If the reading doesn't increase the capacitor is dead. Just because it is still capable of taking a charge doesn't mean that it is working well enough to do the job, and could still need to be replaced. If it isn't taking a charge, it definitely needs to be replaced.

Basically , everything you said above is true & 100% correct....
For this type of cap ONLY....
You are talking specifically about the 220 mfd cap & I was trying to give you a lesson about checking caps in general....
I noticed that you changed from "resistance" to "reading"...
You are on the right track...
Now , allow me to explain further....



Quote
I'm not sure what our communication problem is.

Our communication problem stems from your use of the word "resistance" when using this method of checking caps...
Other than that , we're OK....I THINK....Angelic....


Quote
If the reading doesn't increase the capacitor is dead. & If it isn't taking a charge, it definitely needs to be replaced.

On this type of cap , 100% correct...
IF you start to check other caps in that TV that are in the pico farad range , they most likely will not show a charge on your meter due to the fact that they are soooo small in value the meter can not detect a charge fast enough to give you a reading...
So the above statement would not be correct....
Confused ???....Good , you're learning....
Electronics can be that way sometimes...


I think we're both on the same page here , just looking at it thru different prisms....


Let us know how it goes with the new cap.....


GOOD LUCK.....Sly....




Later...Ron.M....Cool....
Veteran & Retired TV technician


philnotfil
New User

Jan 28, 2011, 1:01 AM

Post #23 of 25 (10083 views)
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Re: [philnotfil] RCA Model:R52WM24 Chassis:ITC222, fixed convergence, now dead [In reply to] Can't Post

Replaced CP130. Plugged in set. Turned on set. Pop (arcing sound) from the back. Unplugged set. Walked around to the back. No sign of where the pop was from. Went back around to the front. Plugged in set. Turned on set. Everything worked fine.

Checked event history for new error codes, or updated counts on previous error codes. 36 and 33 increased in counts, so we can go with those as the active error codes.

Now we have to figure out what those two codes really mean (or I could just put the cover back on and just hope that it keeps working).


philnotfil
New User

Jan 28, 2011, 1:18 AM

Post #24 of 25 (10082 views)
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Re: [philnotfil] RCA Model:R52WM24 Chassis:ITC222, fixed convergence, now dead [In reply to] Can't Post

Plugged a couple of things back into it. Turned it off and on a couple of times.

Error code 33 is not recurring, but 36 is.


philnotfil
New User

Jan 28, 2011, 3:47 PM

Post #25 of 25 (10076 views)
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Re: [philnotfil] RCA Model:R52WM24 Chassis:ITC222, fixed convergence, now dead [In reply to] Can't Post

Dead this morning.

I hate intermittent problems.

 
 
 


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