Help replacing tripler grundig CUC3400 including schematics


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Help replacing tripler grundig CUC3400 including schematics

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t0nito
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Oct 4, 2011, 7:55 PM

Post #1 of 32 (5502 views)
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Help replacing tripler grundig CUC3400 including schematics	Can't Post

Hi

I'm trying to install a voltage tripler to my grundig with chassis CUC3400 if it were a direct replacement I wouldn't be bothering you :D.

I consider myself handy with the soldering iron but I'm no tv repair man. So here goes:

This tv when it used to work had a very loud whine before heating up and it lasted about 30min then one day suddenly I heard arcing noises from the inside and the picture was gone, so I open it up and saw the sparks coming from the tripler.

I ordered a new one model no. HRT904 and a replacement flyback. I ordered the flyback (even though I think the previous one is still working) because of the loud annoying high pitched whine and have already replaced it.

About the HRT904 the salesman said was out of stock but would send me another model (HRT 227 BP) which is compatible but not a direct fit. So I said OK.

Now the schematics are a little confusing to me but since I think they all work similarly you could help me out. I'm sending the grundig's schematic regarding the tripler, and both triplers schematic so you could help me out knowing what goes where.

What I understand of the schematics is:
- Uh is the anode (suction cup) (easy one :P)
- Uf goes to the focus wire
- U~ receives the current from the flyback

But now I dont know this:

Does the diode symboled ( -|>|- ) pin go to "P" or "D" on the grundig schematic?
I think the upside-down "T"( _|_ ) on the HR 227 BP goes to ground but then again, if so, what goes to the other one? (P or D)

I know this post is a little confusing but if you could help me out I'd appreciate it. Otherwise I'll just have to be patient and look for a direct replacement. But I think it won't be easy to find one because according to HRDiemen site the HR904 is indeed discontinued.

Here are the schematics:

[URL=http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/18/hrt227bp.gif/]

[URL=http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/684/grundig.jpg/]

Thanks!

(This post was edited by t0nito on Oct 4, 2011, 11:43 PM)

t0nito
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Oct 6, 2011, 7:04 PM

Post #2 of 32 (5481 views)
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Re: [t0nito] Help replacing tripler grundig CUC3400 including schematics [In reply to]	Can't Post

Anyone? Please?

Ron.M
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Oct 6, 2011, 7:48 PM

Post #3 of 32 (5480 views)
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Re: [t0nito] Help replacing tripler grundig CUC3400 including schematics [In reply to]	Can't Post

t0nito;....

I'll try to give this a shot for you...
I've changed tons of tripplers in my day , but the internal configuration varied....
I'm NOT familiar with Grundig OR that particular trippler....
Even the schematic symbols are a bit confusing to me....However....
My first guess would be that the upside-down "T"( _|_ ) DOES in fact go to ground...
That would be pin "A" on "K501" in your schematic...
The diode symbol ( >| ) does NOT go to "P" on the schematic...
On your schematic , you have "R501" coming off pin "P" of "K501" & is a 30 meg resistor which is part of a voltage divider network for your focus voltage....
On the trippler drawing you have a 33 meg resistor that looks like it's adjustable & is for focus voltage...
That leaves one place left for the diode symbol ( >| ) to go to...
The obvious place would be the "D" connection....
However , I have doubts about that....
Seems to me that there would be a considerable amount of voltage coming off the backside of that diode (D6) feeding into C502 which is rated at only 160 volts...
I would like to see more of that line "SB"...
I would like to see what it hooks into & at what volts are on that line...
So at this time I do NOT recommend you hook it up...
PLEASE post back with either the info on where that line goes OR the schematic for that line...

Thanks..... Smile

....

Later...Ron.M.... Cool

...
Veteran & Retired TV technician

t0nito
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Oct 6, 2011, 8:27 PM

Post #4 of 32 (5477 views)
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Re: [Ron.M] Help replacing tripler grundig CUC3400 including schematics [In reply to]	Can't Post

Thank you so much for your valuable reply, :D

I feel embarassed now because I should have known that D is indeed the focus pot that is coupled to the tripler.

So here is the whole schematic:

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=HZZ83RY1

Hope it helps figuring this out :D

Ron.M
Veteran

Oct 6, 2011, 8:41 PM

Post #5 of 32 (5474 views)
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Re: [t0nito] Help replacing tripler grundig CUC3400 including schematics [In reply to]	Can't Post

t0nito;....

While I'm downloading the schematic (I'm on slooooww dial-up ,so it will take awhile) , do you have a DVM , multimeter or a volt meter ???

Later...Ron.M.... Cool

....
Veteran & Retired TV technician

t0nito
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Oct 6, 2011, 8:43 PM

Post #6 of 32 (5473 views)
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Re: [Ron.M] Help replacing tripler grundig CUC3400 including schematics [In reply to]	Can't Post

Yes, I have a digital multimeter but it's a chinese cheepo :P

By the way I don't know if it's relevant but from I read about this chassis there is no "official" power suply, it's all from the flyback" Could SB stand for Stand-by?

To quote from http://obsoletetellyemuseum.blogspot.com/2010/10/grundig-super-color-p37-342-chassis-cuc_29.html:

"This chassis is particular.
No "Official" power supply, all supplyes are generated via the Line + EHT Transormer which acts as SMPS LINE TRANSFORMER.
It seems simple but is sophisticated, all is based on two MAIN components:
The TDA3640 (PHILIPS) and the SMPS LINE TRANSFORMER which is very particular." <br>

(This post was edited by t0nito on Oct 6, 2011, 8:50 PM)

Ron.M
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Oct 6, 2011, 9:17 PM

Post #7 of 32 (5466 views)
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Re: [t0nito] Help replacing tripler grundig CUC3400 including schematics [In reply to]	Can't Post

t0nito;...

You're asking a man whose experience with Grundig products amounts to a few of their TOP drawer table radios from about 50 years ago....

Quote

Could SB stand for Stand-by?

NO & you'll have to ask the Germans what it & other stuff in their manual mean....

Back to the tripler...
WHAT a piece of work that schematic is....
It seems "SA" runs around to a few points & eventually the line gets wrinkled up & disappears...

Lets try this....
From what I saw on the schematic , I don't think we are going to get any high or dangerous voltage at "SB"....
Wire the trippler in , including pin "D"...
Have your meter's "+" lead hooked up to the "D" pin & the "-" lead hooked up to pin "A" or equivilent ground connection....
Set your meter to read + DC volts on the +300 volt range....
Keep your meter leads away from the heavy red wires....
Make sure that everything is in a safe condition....
Now as you turn on the TV , read the volts on the meter.....
IF the volts go over 125 vdc , turn the TV off immediately...
Remember the reading & post results....

Thanks.... Smile

.....

Later...Ron.M.... Cool

....
Veteran & Retired TV technician

(This post was edited by Ron.M on Oct 6, 2011, 9:31 PM)

jts1957
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Oct 6, 2011, 10:04 PM

Post #8 of 32 (5456 views)
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Re: [Ron.M] Help replacing tripler grundig CUC3400 including schematics [In reply to]	Can't Post

Do Grundig TVs emit "Magic Smoke?"

Let's find out... Wink

-------------------------
Location: Far, Far Away

t0nito
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Oct 6, 2011, 10:30 PM

Post #9 of 32 (5454 views)
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Re: [jts1957] Help replacing tripler grundig CUC3400 including schematics [In reply to]	Can't Post

Arrgh you're so mean! Cool

I think I should be a little more patient and see if I can find a direct replacement, if I can't find one the I'll risk the smoke, as I really like this tv. Smile

jts1957
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Oct 6, 2011, 10:44 PM

Post #10 of 32 (5452 views)
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Re: [t0nito] Help replacing tripler grundig CUC3400 including schematics [In reply to]	Can't Post

Is it "Talk Like A Pirate Day" arready? Wink

Learn to look after the "Re:" in subject line to see whom post is directed at.

-------------------------
Location: Far, Far Away

t0nito
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Oct 6, 2011, 11:08 PM

Post #11 of 32 (5450 views)
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Re: [jts1957] Help replacing tripler grundig CUC3400 including schematics [In reply to]	Can't Post

Ok, sorry, didn't notice it...

Ron.M
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Oct 7, 2011, 1:56 AM

Post #12 of 32 (5431 views)
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Re: [t0nito] Help replacing tripler grundig CUC3400 including schematics [In reply to]	Can't Post

t0nito;....

EDIT....STOP THE PRESSES !!!!

As you'll soon read below , I went to your link...
In that article is a trippler number "HRT 310" for YOUR TV . which is considerably different from the "HRT 227BP" ...
Where & HOW did you come up with "HRT904" ???
I warn you , these tripplers ARE different & could cause a problem with focusing range....
IF the original trippler IS "HRT310" , the "HRT 227BP" may be a problem...
WHAT is the number on the original ????
You'll notice that the HRT310 does NOT have the tapped resistor of 60M/253M/193M the HRT 227BP has.....
You'll also see that the focus voltage comes from the junction of D1 & D2 in HRT310...
In HRT 227BP the focus voltage comes from the tap on the internal resistor & may be a different value...

Quote

I think I should be a little more patient and see if I can find a direct replacement, if I can't find one the I'll risk the smoke, as I really like this tv.

He's KIDDING about the "Magic Smoke"....
See this;=>.... Wink

...

From what you said earlier , the chances of you finding an exact replacement are slim & none....
Slim left town....
That was for the HRT904...
What about HRT310 ???
How old is that TV ???
30 YEARS ????

IF you do EXACTLY as I said , NO harm should come to the TV...

But , as usual , YOUR call.... Smile

....

BTW:.....
I went to your link out of curiosity;=>....
http://obsoletetellyemuseum.blogspot.com/...-chassis-cuc_29.html:

& got this;=>....

Quote

Page not found
Sorry, the page you were looking for in the blog Obsolete Technology Tellye ! does not exist.

Copying & pasting the link from your post gives you the above...
However , IF you click on my link you get the desired article...

GOOD LUCK..... Sly

...

Later..Ron.M.... Cool

....
Veteran & Retired TV technician

jts1957
Veteran

Oct 7, 2011, 4:01 AM

Post #13 of 32 (5427 views)
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Re: [t0nito] Help replacing tripler grundig CUC3400 including schematics [In reply to]	Can't Post

You should always leave a space (or two) before and after address link. Smile

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Location: Far, Far Away

jts1957
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Oct 7, 2011, 4:03 AM

Post #14 of 32 (5426 views)
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Re: [Ron.M] Help replacing tripler grundig CUC3400 including schematics [In reply to]	Can't Post

Quote

About the HRT904 the salesman said was out of stock but would send me another model (HRT 227 BP) which is compatible but not a direct fit. So I said OK.

From his 1st post. Tongue

-------------------------
Location: Far, Far Away

t0nito
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Oct 7, 2011, 7:38 AM

Post #15 of 32 (5420 views)
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Re: [Ron.M] Help replacing tripler grundig CUC3400 including schematics [In reply to]	Can't Post

This is the where the equivalent replacement parts list is:
[URL=http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/696/modellh.jpg/]

Also read on other sites that it is the hrt904.

This tv is from early to mid 90's

t0nito
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Oct 7, 2011, 1:27 PM

Post #16 of 32 (5417 views)
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Re: [t0nito] Help replacing tripler grundig CUC3400 including schematics [In reply to]	Can't Post

By visually inspecting the board all pins from the tripler (except the Uf Uh U~ of course) goes to ground. Should it be safe to conclude that the diode pin connects to where I pointed on the last photo in red?

BTW, my camera sucks in macro mode....

[URL=http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/199/img3356od.jpg/]

[/ URL]

[URL=http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/706/img3357ys.jpg/]

[URL=http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/208/img3358s.jpg/]

[URL=http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/850/img3361y.jpg/]

Also, if I type in the original reference (BG 2077-642-1004 HG) of the tripler on that website I showed on the previous post, it also gives me a HRT904, so I guess it's safe to try this tripler, right?

(This post was edited by t0nito on Oct 7, 2011, 1:51 PM)

Ron.M
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Oct 7, 2011, 6:36 PM

Post #17 of 32 (5409 views)
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Re: [t0nito] Help replacing tripler grundig CUC3400 including schematics [In reply to]	Can't Post

jts1957;....

You know how I feel about subbing parts...
What I was trying to find out was HOW he/they came up with a sub that's electronically different than the original....
It may work & I see no reason for alarm for it to cause ANY damage....

t0nito;....
Those pix are of the "original" allegedly bad trippler...
Does the replacement look identical ???

It looks like it's a relatively simple thing to replace....

Quote

By visually inspecting the board all pins from the tripler (except the Uf Uh U~ of course) goes to ground.

You have 4 pins that are for mounting the unit to the PC board that DO appear to go to ground...
There are 2 pins in the bottom pix (#3 of the trippler) to the left of the blue wire that go to other connections on the board....
One goes to the red arrow & the red diode (In the last pix of the circuit board) ....
The other goes to where you have a black arrow just below the red arrow & diode...

Quote

I guess it's safe to try this tripler, right?

I don't see ANY reason why not...
IF the replacement IS physically the SAME .....
(Do they LOOK the same ???)

IF they look different , post a pix or 2 & we go from there...Otherwise...
Just clear the holes out (using a desoldering braid or a solder sucker) , plug in the new trippler , solder it in , hook up the blue wires where they belong & give her a try...
DO as I said in an earlier post using your meter....
IF you have ANY questions about the blue wires OR ??? , just ask....
PLEASE post results....Thanks.... Smile

...

Later...Ron.M.... Cool

....
Veteran & Retired TV technician

t0nito
User

Oct 7, 2011, 7:45 PM

Post #18 of 32 (5407 views)
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Re: [Ron.M] Help replacing tripler grundig CUC3400 including schematics [In reply to]	Can't Post

Unfortunately they are physically different, otherwise I would have just popped it in and cross fingers.

The HRT904 is exactly the same but is proving difficult to get one, I phoned another supplier and they say its out of stock but would call me if they get one.

As you can see on the photos, to add even more confusion to this mess, the wire's colouring is different from the schematic's table, even though it's the right reference number.

The actual markings on the tripler is also a little confusing.

The man that sent me this tripler told me that they were electronically compatible but he did warn me that it wasn't the same fit.

Before I solder it I'd like your opinion to see if my assumption is correct, does this look right to you? (arrows pointing to wires) I'm really scared I'll burn something, especially the new flyback I installed if I switch any connection.

[URL=http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/522/img3362g.jpg/]

[URL=http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/842/img3366n.jpg/]

[URL=http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/683/img3367d.jpg/]

Sorry for being such a PITA Blush

t0nito
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Oct 7, 2011, 7:55 PM

Post #19 of 32 (5406 views)
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Re: [t0nito] Help replacing tripler grundig CUC3400 including schematics [In reply to]	Can't Post

Just for comparison, here is the replacement I was trying to get (HRT904)

http://www.hqelektronik.hu/info/en/hrt904.html

It is physically similar, just a different brand. HR vs ERD

t0nito
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Oct 7, 2011, 8:40 PM

Post #20 of 32 (5401 views)
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Re: [t0nito] Help replacing tripler grundig CUC3400 including schematics [In reply to]	Can't Post

Ok, so I've got good news and bad news.

Good news the tv is working Cool

and no magic smoke, so far Wink

Bad news out of focus and turning the focus knob doesn't do absolutely nothing, now what? Frown

[URL=http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/13/img3371xs.jpg/]

[URL=http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/513/img3372f.jpg/]

Ron.M
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Oct 7, 2011, 8:55 PM

Post #21 of 32 (5395 views)
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t0nito;....

Anxious aint ya !!!!

Before I could say do NOT install that one , you did !!!
No harm done....
Stupid questions;=>....
Did you hook up the wire that goes to the focus control???
Where on the new trippler did you hook it to ???
What is the band from in the top pix ???

I'm 2 clicks away from telling you to send that one back....

Later...Ron.M.... Cool

...
Veteran & Retired TV technician

t0nito
User

Oct 7, 2011, 9:22 PM

Post #22 of 32 (5393 views)
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Re: [Ron.M] Help replacing tripler grundig CUC3400 including schematics [In reply to]	Can't Post

whoops, I'm sorry Blush

the wire from the focus (board connected to crt) marked UF and the pot's bare wire connected to ground.

The band is produced by the camera, picture is looking great except for the bit out of focus, if I turn down the contrast a bit it go to focus though, but of course the image is not as bright.

Ron.M
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Oct 7, 2011, 10:36 PM

Post #23 of 32 (5384 views)
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Re: [t0nito] Help replacing tripler grundig CUC3400 including schematics [In reply to]	Can't Post

t0nito;...

Here's why the focus is out...

Quote

the wire from the focus (board connected to crt) marked UF and the pot's bare wire connected to ground.

OK , let me make this a LOT clearer....
When I asked;""Did you hook up the wire that goes to the focus control???"""
I meant that the wire on the focus control is hooked up to ___ ????
I'm NOT talking about the wire that goes to ground here, but the other wire...

The "UF" connection ON the new trippler goes to the focus wire that hooks up to the CRT board,module or panel (whichever you want to call it)...

In the pix below , I have a green arrow pointing to a red box...
In that red box there looks like a control...
Does the center part (The knurled part) of that turn in either direction ???

From the same area , there appears to be a "bare" wire coming from that "control"...
Where did you connect that wire ???
Please be specific....Thanks... Sly

....

Later...Ron.M.... Cool

....
Veteran & Retired TV technician

t0nito
User

Oct 7, 2011, 11:05 PM

Post #24 of 32 (5378 views)
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Re: [Ron.M] Help replacing tripler grundig CUC3400 including schematics [In reply to]	Can't Post

Ok, hope you like my paint skills Tongue

So the bare wire is going from the pot to ground, the "other end" of the pot marked B goes inside the tripler then on the tripler there is small wire/bent pin marked UF, to where I connected the focus wire.

[URL=http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/444/paintu.jpg/]

Ron.M
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Oct 8, 2011, 12:29 AM

Post #25 of 32 (5369 views)
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Re: [t0nito] Help replacing tripler grundig CUC3400 including schematics [In reply to]	Can't Post

t0nito;....

OK , I REALLY need to have more coffee in the morning.... Unsure

...

That red circled area IS the focus control....
IF that IS moving & you do NOT see ANY change in focus , sumptin's wrong...
I know that was a stroke of genius to say...
Also the HRT227BP & the HRT904 are VERY close electronically...
The major differences being the internal resistors values...
There is a BIG difference between the HRT227BP & HRT904...
The HRT227BP has a divider value of 506 Megs....
The HRT904 has a divider value of 378 Megs...
506-378=128 Megs...
I'm not sure that's the problem...
But , that's a big difference...
You STILL should see some change when you adjust the focus control...
IF you see ZERO change in the focus , then one of 3 things is wrong...
1)..The trippler is wired in wrong...
2)...The trippler is defective...
3)..The trippler is the wrong one...
Based on what you've just told me , it's wired in correctly so it's #2 or #3..
So I'd suggest you send that one back for a refund & get the one from here;=>...(Your link)
http://www.hqelektronik.hu/info/en/hrt904.html
They're in stock...
Altho , I have NO clue what 4620.00 OR 3008.85 HUF's are !!!
Thank God those are NOT USD or GBPs...
The main reason I'm suggesting you get the HRT904 is that you presumeably had good focus before this problem...Correct ???

Another thing that is blowing my mind is how did you get from a HRT310 as is in the service manual to a HRT227BP OR a HRT904 !!!
There is NO internal resistor for focus in that trippler (HRT310) , which indicates to me that there was at one time a resistor/control mounted somewhere onboard the chassis separate from the trippler...
It apparently was removed when the current trippler (HRT904) was replaced...
Sound logical ???

Hard to tell , but these pix appear to show a different trippler;=>...
Don't see any adjustment , tho....

Have a GREAT day & weekend.... Sly

....

Later..Ron.M..... Cool

....
Veteran & Retired TV technician

(This post was edited by Ron.M on Oct 8, 2011, 12:30 AM)

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