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Crumbtrail TV Forums: TV Equipment: TV Repair Forum:
RCA: No Red

 

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vcand
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Feb 16, 2010, 8:31 PM

Post #1 of 56 (4537 views)
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RCA: No Red Can't Post

RCA 52"
Model: D52W20
Chassis: ITC222
Manf. Date: Nov. 2003

I've had this TV for MANY years, problem free, until now when I jumped on the TV-Failure coaster.

I've had this escalating problem that is baffling me. I started loosing RED a few months ago. It would start up fine, I'd watch TV for an hour or two, then the red would fade out and immediately pop back on.

It then progressed to fading out a little more frequently, staying off for a little longer, then fading back in.

It then progressed to having red at first, fading out within a few minutes, then staying gone most of the time (I could see horizontal red refresh lines on black channels/inputs).

(When the red would cut out, the tube never turned off it just got dim, as evident by looking at them)

After replacing the coolant in the blue & green tubes (no fluid came in contact with anything and I did not touch the red tube/board at all, or even check if red needed fluid because there was no signs of a leak), I reduced the power to the red tube (via the Screen/Focus pots) a hair in order to remove the red refresh lines. It worked so-so. The red lines disappeared, the whites returned, but red was very lacking in the picture.

I watched TV for about an hour (playing with color and tint), then the picture started getting all funky, turning on and off, then the whole picture died all together. I turned it immediately off then back on, the picture came up then disappeared again. I waited a good while, tried it again, and this time I heard an obvious arching sound so I turned it off immediately and left it off a couple weeks.

After sitting for a couple weeks, I turned it back on to start diagnosing and to see if I could isolate the arching, and now the red tube does not even come on, but blue and green work fine and I can watch TV again, sort of. There's no flashing lights, or any indication of a problem, just the red tube is not on.

I checked the pots on the screen/focus box for resistance and they're all fine. I checked the flyback to see if there was any ring cracks on the solder points (common with this model), and there are none that are evident. I did not measure any output of the flyback though. I inspected all the boards for any obvious problems (blown caps, burnt marks, and anything else that looks out of place) and there are none.

I have felt the waters by calling several TV repair places, and the answers I got vary greatly and lack any confidence, as well as their prices. I've been told convergence board, red tube, flyback, main board, "buy a new TV". So with the common theme being "give us money and we'll guess", I turn to the forum here.

Does anyone have any ideas, or can point me towards areas to check?

Thanks



vcand
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Feb 16, 2010, 10:42 PM

Post #2 of 56 (4526 views)
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Re: [vcand] RCA: No Red [In reply to] Can't Post

I just had a TV repair guy tell me it's the tube. The arching was the anode arching and then the subsequent "no red" is the bulb being dead. Does this sound about right?


techchris
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Feb 17, 2010, 12:21 PM

Post #3 of 56 (4514 views)
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Re: [vcand] RCA: No Red [In reply to] Can't Post

yes it's a fair assumption.


shadetree
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Feb 17, 2010, 7:05 PM

Post #4 of 56 (4507 views)
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Re: [vcand] RCA: No Red [In reply to] Can't Post

I think if the tube was arcing it would still be arcing or the tv would have shut down completely


Ron.M
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Feb 18, 2010, 12:24 AM

Post #5 of 56 (4495 views)
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vcand;....
I held off replying to this thread because ITC222 is not my strong suit....
That said;....

Quote
I just had a TV repair guy tell me it's the tube. The arching was the anode arching and then the subsequent "no red" is the bulb being dead. Does this sound about right?

Unless he heard it himself....
Do not jump too quickly on the red CRT....
The anode arcing may be external to the CRT....
IF you hear the arcing somewhat clearly, it could be where the High Voltage lead ,(the thick red wire from the flyback) connects on the side near the top of the CRT arcing to ground (near the rubber button)....
That's a relatively easy fix....
IF the arcing sounds a bit muffled , it may be arcing internally (inside the red CRT)....
That requires a new CRT....



Quote
I checked the pots on the screen/focus box for resistance and they're all fine.

Gotta be a GREAT meter....Those readings ARE very high ohms....



Quote
I checked the flyback to see if there was any ring cracks on the solder points (common with this model), and there are none that are evident.

It would be a good idea to re-solder them anyway....
Not all bad connections can be seen with the naked eye...
Prevents future problems....



Quote
I think if the tube was arcing it would still be arcing or the tv would have shut down completely

Very possibly true....


Now , I have some suggestions for you....

Quote
""then the red would fade out and immediately pop back on.""

""It then progressed to having red at first, fading out within a few minutes,""


""I did not touch the red tube/board at all,""

Since you are having a problem with the red "fading" out originaly , that looks like a cold solder connection(s) to me...
Remove the red CRT board & re-solder ALL the CRT socket connections...
With magnifying glasses or a good magnifying lens , check for cracked looking , dull or suspicious connections & re-solder those that do...
If you have any doubts about a connection , re-solder it....
Better safe than sorry....
I have seen bad CRT board connections cause arcing....
Don't get your hopes up....Unsure...
This may not be your problem but worth a shot....


GOOD LUCK....

EDIT; ..PS;.... There's one thing we can do to prove the condition of the RED CRT...Will post that after you post results of above suggestion....

Later...Ron.M....Cool....
Veteran & Retired TV technician

(This post was edited by Ron.M on Feb 18, 2010, 12:30 AM)


jts1957
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Feb 18, 2010, 6:55 AM

Post #6 of 56 (4488 views)
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Re: [Ron.M] RCA: No Red [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Do not jump too quickly on the red CRT....


That's right, they're fragile and might implode!


-------------------------
Location: Far, Far Away


vcand
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Feb 18, 2010, 8:15 AM

Post #7 of 56 (4484 views)
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Re: [Ron.M] RCA: No Red [In reply to] Can't Post

Wow, talk about perfect timing. I was just at the site where I found replacement bulbs contemplating the last minute fate of my purchase.


Quote
IF you hear the arcing somewhat clearly, it could be where the High Voltage lead ,(the thick red wire from the flyback) connects on the side near the top of the CRT arcing to ground (near the rubber button)....
That's a relatively easy fix....
IF the arcing sounds a bit muffled , it may be arcing internally (inside the red CRT)....
That requires a new CRT....

It's really hard to describe the arching because it was so brief. I would say (compared to the videos I've watched on youtube of arching off the flyback) it was muffled. It wasn't a loud "somethings wrong" sound, it did take me a few seconds to go "whats that sound" before I realized. All together the arch sound happened for about 5-6 seconds before I shut the set off. Ever since that one instance, I've never heard it again and the red tube did not fire when I turned the set back on (a couple weeks later). The best I can describe it is, it was a sort of a slow, low/dull arch.



Quote
Gotta be a GREAT meter....Those readings ARE very high ohms....

I'm actually taking that information secondhand. My brother (the self-proclaimed electronics guru) said he metered it and saw the resistance fluctuate as he adjusted them; I took him at his word.


Quote
Very possibly true....

Well, the picture shut down initially for an unknown reason, I turned it off, waited, then when I turned it back on I heard the momentary arch, picture disappeared, then I shut it off. When I turned it back on there was no more arch nor was there red.

The way I understood it, and I know very little about CRT tubes, is that the "internal arch" basically once it happened it blew the bulb (similar to a tungsten filament). I may be way off in my understanding though.


Quote
Remove the red CRT board & re-solder ALL the CRT socket connections...
With magnifying glasses or a good magnifying lens , check for cracked looking , dull or suspicious connections & re-solder those that do...

Very good suggestions, if a cold solder was the catalyst (providing the bulb is dead), it would only happen again. I appreciate your suggestion. I'll pull the board and do that and I'll pull the flyback board, re-solder that, and check the fuses. It will be a couple days and I'll be sure to update.

Thanks a lot!


Ron.M
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Feb 18, 2010, 7:36 PM

Post #8 of 56 (4478 views)
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vcand;....
THANK you for that informative reply....Sly....




Quote
The way I understood it, and I know very little about CRT tubes, is that the "internal arch" basically once it happened it blew the bulb (similar to a tungsten filament)

NOT neccessarily....Depends on the severity & frequency of the arcing...A once in awhile little "tick" arc for the most part is harmless , but still over the long haul can cause damage & should be corrected...A larger "BANG" most likely caused major damage that is irreversable...


Quote
It will be a couple days and I'll be sure to update.

I insist you do as we have not yet condemed the CRT....
One more test to do....


THANKS....


Later...Ron.M....Cool....
Veteran & Retired TV technician


vcand
New User

Feb 24, 2010, 7:14 AM

Post #9 of 56 (4457 views)
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Re: [Ron.M] RCA: No Red [In reply to] Can't Post

OK, I wanted to post an update as this thing is starting to give me a headache.

I re-soldered the socket on the red and looked for any obvious problems (I ended up fixing a couple points that looked so-so).

And the results:
I put it all back together and started up the set. The blue and green warmed up and came on, shortly after the red came on (good news?). So I started to adjust the pots and fix the focus and stuff. All went well till I got to the Red.

The red tube, as soon as I turned the pot the littlest bit, brought up an increasing intensity of fixed red horizontal refresh lines (I'll try to attach a pic).

I turned off the tube and rechecked all the connections. Turned it back on and now no red again.

So I pulled the bored again and noticed a scratch (I guess when I was putting it in) that split a track, so I repaired that, and still no red.

The board I was working on could use a cleaning, so I am going to try that, and then report back the final verdict.

I definitely am starting to believe that it sounds like a sub-par connection somewhere.. I don't know if it is also the cause of the HR lines though.

Heres the pic:


(This post was edited by vcand on Feb 24, 2010, 7:25 AM)


Ron.M
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Feb 24, 2010, 6:14 PM

Post #10 of 56 (4439 views)
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vcand;....



Quote
The blue and green warmed up and came on, shortly after the red came on (good news?). So I started to adjust the pots and fix the focus and stuff. All went well till I got to the Red.

Did you see any red in the pix while it was "on" & before you messed with the pots for focus ????




Quote
The board I was working on could use a cleaning, so I am going to try that, and then report back the final verdict.

OK , when you are done with that , post back & we'll move on to my test....




Quote
I don't know if it is also the cause of the HR lines though.

No , it's not....I don't think cleaning anything is going to do any good here....

Will wait till you are ready......


Later.....Ron.M....Cool.....
Veteran & Retired TV technician


vcand
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Feb 26, 2010, 10:49 AM

Post #11 of 56 (4425 views)
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Re: [Ron.M] RCA: No Red [In reply to] Can't Post


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Did you see any red in the pix while it was "on" & before you messed with the pots for focus ????

No, with all them turned down, green and blue came through strong.. I didn't SEE red until I turned it up, and its what is found in the picture above, just the lines with a red background, no actual picture.


Quote
OK , when you are done with that , post back & we'll move on to my test....

I'm ready. My theory was to swap the blue and red boards and check, but I'm not making a move until I hear from you.


Ron.M
Veteran


Feb 26, 2010, 9:46 PM

Post #12 of 56 (4416 views)
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Re: [vcand] RCA: No Red [In reply to] Can't Post

vcand;.....

Need a bit of clarification here;=>...

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No, with all them turned down, green and blue came through strong..

What was turned down ???...The "ALL" part ???


Quote
OK , when you are done with that , post back & we'll move on to my test....



Quote
I'm ready. My theory was to swap the blue and red boards and check, but I'm not making a move until I hear from you.

We are on the same page...
My suggestion would be to move the green CRT module over to the red CRT , move the blue CRT module over to the green CRT & hang the red CRT module in space away from any wiring and metal grounds...
Do whatever works & post back with results & answers to my questions...

Thanks....Sly......



Later...Ron.M....Cool....
Veteran & Retired TV technician


vcand
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Feb 26, 2010, 10:06 PM

Post #13 of 56 (4414 views)
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Re: [Ron.M] RCA: No Red [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Need a bit of clarification here;=>...


What I meant was; all of the factory settings for screen/focus were messed when my brother was looking at it. So to reduce any chance of overpowering an already "questionable" tube, I turned all the pots CCW to the minimum setting, so that I could work up from there when adjusting. So, it's not "all the way down" in the sense that there's no power to anything, just "all the way down" to the minimum settings.


Quote
We are on the same page...
Do whatever works & post back with results & answers to my questions...

I will attempt that shortly and let you know.
Thanks :D


Ron.M
Veteran


Feb 26, 2010, 10:23 PM

Post #14 of 56 (4412 views)
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vcand;...

More clarification needed;=>



Quote
I turned all the pots CCW to the minimum setting, so that I could work up from there when adjusting. <<Good thinking.. So, it's not "all the way down" in the sense that there's no power to anything, just "all the way down" to the minimum settings.



Are the controls set ALL the way CCW when you;=>...

Quote
No, with all them turned down, >>green and blue came through strong <<..

Did you see a pix or light on the viewing screen &/or the CRT face with them turned all the way down to minimum ????
Reason I'm asking these questions is that you may have 2 problems & not the CRT...


Later....Ron.M....Cool...
Veteran & Retired TV technician

(This post was edited by Ron.M on Feb 26, 2010, 10:26 PM)


vcand
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Mar 1, 2010, 1:04 PM

Post #15 of 56 (4402 views)
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Re: [Ron.M] RCA: No Red [In reply to] Can't Post


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Are the controls set ALL the way CCW when you;=>.

Yes. Everything is/was CCW. So the focus is way off, and the picture is dim. And the one time the red tube came on, it was missing from the picture. So I was only viewing an image that had green and blue (with everything CCW). When I turned up the red (first in line), the image above (the red lines with red background) came in and eventually overpowered the blue/green.. but BEFORE turning it up from CCW, you could not see any red at all, just blue/green.


Quote
Did you see a pix or light on the viewing screen &/or the CRT face with them turned all the way down to minimum ????

With them turned all the way down (min settings) there was no red. With them turned all the way down, I could see blue/green dimmer than usual but clealy visible. I was able to go into the convergence menu and view the alignment and focus prior to turning them up. (See image below, this is ALL THE WAY CCW).



As far as on the CRT faces, I didn't look into them directly (the screen was still on), I slid the screen over a little and peered behind the screen. What I saw from power on was this: 1) B/G came on very dim (warm up). 2) about 5 seconds or so pass 3) Blue/green gets brighter (after the static sound) and the image fades in on the screen. At some point, my back was turned, the red tube came on. The red brightness via observing the face looks similar to the B&G.

This is the faces (minus red) at MINIMUM settings:


I have since swapped the boards and here's the results.
No significant data to report. Unfortunately it was not as simple as just moving all the boards over one and letting the red board hang. There was by far NOT enough slack in there to move any more than a couple of inches. Furthermore there was insufficient room to put the red board anywhere. So what I did was, I removed the red board all together, moved the blue and green boards over one tube. Now in moving the boards I had to utilize the plugs that hung down from the tubes and plugged them into the newly moved board.

After all complete I powered up. No picture, and no light from the tubes. I heard the 2 clicks that normally happen (first click is when the tubes come on dim, the 2nd click is when the picture appears), but never any picture. Other than the red board, I didn't move anything and all the cables are attached properly. My only assumption is that all three boards are needed to create a balance.

Thanks again... Vincent


shadetree
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Mar 1, 2010, 2:32 PM

Post #16 of 56 (4396 views)
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Re: [vcand] RCA: No Red [In reply to] Can't Post

I've had this problem before and it was the high voltage splitter try switching the red wire going to the splitter with the blue or green turn the wire counter clockwise while pulling out on it


Ron.M
Veteran


Mar 1, 2010, 9:14 PM

Post #17 of 56 (4389 views)
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Re: [vcand] RCA: No Red [In reply to] Can't Post

vcand;....

Just a reminder;=>...

Quote
I held off replying to this thread because ITC222 is not my strong suit....


IF it was the "high voltage splitter" , you would not be getting any high voltage needed for brightness & they don't cause the pix to "slowly" fade in &/or out....

Weeeelllll , that didn't work as planned , did it ????...
What I'm not seeing here is;..What is the sound doing during all of this ???
Are you losing audio or does it stay on when the CRTs go off ???



Quote
So what I did was, I removed the red board all together, moved the blue and green boards over one tube.

This "may" be why you got no picture, and no light from the tubes.



Quote
My only assumption is that all three boards are needed to create a balance

I think you are right....
So please , try this again with the red module fully hooked up & lets see what happens....



Quote
Furthermore there was insufficient room to put the red board anywhere.

Try hanging it below the CRT....There has to be somewhere you can tuck that board....

If not......

Lets try this a different way....
With the CRT modules back to their original locations & wired up;=>..
Below is a pix of the rear side of the focus/screen block....
There are 2 rows involved here....See blue arrows....
One row of 3 wires is for focus connections with a wire going to each CRT....
The 2nd row of 3 wires is for screen voltage also with a wire going to each CRT....
The center wire in both rows is for green...
You need to identify the red wires on the back side....
According to the pix , they would be on the right side....
Unplug the red screen wire & switch with the green screen wire....
Unplug the red focus wire & switch with the green focus wire....
Use care to not get them mixed up....
End result will be that the green focus & screen wires are now going to the red CRT & red focus & screen wires are going to the green CRT...



Now turn on the TV & see what gives....Unsure....

Note what the audio does & please post back with all info.....

Thanks....


Later...Ron.M....Cool....
Veteran & Retired TV technician


vcand
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Mar 2, 2010, 2:18 AM

Post #18 of 56 (4385 views)
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Re: [Ron.M] RCA: No Red [In reply to] Can't Post


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Weeeelllll , that didn't work as planned , did it ????...


Quote
So please , try this again with the red module fully hooked up & lets see what happens.


The only way I assume that there is even the slightest possibility of trying to swap the boards while leaving it plugged in would be to fully dissasemble the unit down to the chassis, that may provide enough room. Putting the red drive board under the newly moved one would certainly cause problems (to shallow). I may be able to dissasemble and pull it forwards out of the unit.


Quote
Just a reminder;=>...

I completely understand and do not expect miracles. ANY help from any one with even the slightest idea of TV repair is appreciated, and I feel you've gone beyond that, and I appreciate that.


Quote
What is the sound doing during all of this ???

The sound is unchanged. It's still the first to fire (even when the picture is warming up) and it sounds find.


Quote
Use care to not get them mixed up.

They are thankfully color-coded


Quote
End result will be that the green focus & screen wires are now going to the red CRT & red focus & screen wires are going to the green CRT...

So here's another oddity. I tried it that way, no difference. So, I decided to leave the red wires plugged into the green, and just unplugged the green all together (figuring green would not work). Well, still no red, but green came on anyhow? (just with no warm-up period)

I am trying something here, hopefully this helps. I upload 2 videos to youtube of whats going on.
1) Hooked up normal: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5iI3_A7DTg
2) Red in green spot, no green wires: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvbX2Dqwk74

Hope this helps,
Vincent


Ron.M
Veteran


Mar 2, 2010, 4:56 AM

Post #19 of 56 (4368 views)
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vcand;....
Why am I seeing what appears to be the CRTs in both videos just before the pix comes on as shown below ????


#1=>...




#2=>....





Quote
The only way I assume that there is even the slightest possibility of trying to swap the boards while leaving it plugged in would be to fully dissasemble the unit down to the chassis, that may provide enough room. Putting the red drive board under the newly moved one would certainly cause problems (to shallow). I may be able to dissasemble and pull it forwards out of the unit.

Don't do any dis-assembly just yet....
Let me sleep on this a bit....
There has to be a way....


This is what my service manual is showing me;....



Granted that's tight , but to my cataract ridden eyes (not really) it looks like there's enough space there...

Can you post a few pix of the area where we have the space problem ???


Thanks....
Later...Ron.M....Cool....
Veteran & Retired TV technician


vcand
New User

Mar 2, 2010, 6:03 AM

Post #20 of 56 (4363 views)
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Re: [Ron.M] RCA: No Red [In reply to] Can't Post


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hy am I seeing what appears to be the CRTs in both videos just before the pix comes on as shown below


I am not exactly sure what you're asking, but before you were asking about what was I observed of the CRTs during power on (in reference to sound and everything). So I slid the screen out of the way and recorded the crts in the mirror (I couldnt get an angle on them directly). Then once picture occurred, I slid the screen back to show the picture. So it's the view of the mirror until I slid the screen back.


vcand
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Mar 2, 2010, 6:22 AM

Post #21 of 56 (4362 views)
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Re: [Ron.M] RCA: No Red [In reply to] Can't Post


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This is what my service manual is showing me;....


Quote
Can you post a few pix of the area where we have the space problem ???

Your service manual is fairly accurate. That pic shows the unit with the entire front cover off (not just the fabric grill). It also doesn't show the 1inch layer of insulation? at the bottom (yellow cotton-like stuff). To get my tv to that point (which then I could just simply hang it wherever), I have to remove, pretty much all the plastic trims, the mirror hood, etc. to get the entire front plastic cover off (which is what I referenced in the last reply).

This is the area I'm working in now (with the front cover attached):


From the bottom (insulation included) I have about 3 inches:


And if I WAS able to somehow flip the board underneath the green board (which will be located on the red tube), the clearance would be almost nothing.


As far as bringing the board forward or back, the trim does not allow that. The back only has a few holes for the wiring to come through and the front overlaps the tubes on each side. So inevitably the only way to actually let the board hang anywhere, would be to disassemble, which is not a problem at all.


Ron.M
Veteran


Mar 2, 2010, 7:23 PM

Post #22 of 56 (4349 views)
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Re: [vcand] RCA: No Red [In reply to] Can't Post

vcand;....

BTW;....EXCELLENT videos....
I can see that you also have the focus controls all the way CCW....



Quote
So I slid the screen out of the way and recorded the crts in the mirror (I couldnt get an angle on them directly)

That explains it....


Quote
Well, still no red, but green came on anyhow? (just with no warm-up period)

In video #2 I did not see any green , just blue....If you saw any green looking directly into the lens , it was just some type of random harmless low level emission....NOT to worry....

Before you take anything apart , lets go on a bit of an Easter egg hunt....
I don't have the exact manual for your set....
Just a generic ITC222 service manual....
EDIT;....
I searched this thread looking to see if you have the exact manual for your set...
The info may be there...
Question is, do you have the exact service manual for your TV ???
If so , is it a digital file or paper ???
If it's digital , would you consider emailing it to me ????
THANKS....Sly....
I'm going to try to find your exact manual asap....
What I want to do is check the video output transistor/IC & see if it's any good...
That's one reason for the module switching...
Give me a bit of time & I'll get back to you....

Later.....Ron.M.....Cool....
Veteran & Retired TV technician

(This post was edited by Ron.M on Mar 2, 2010, 7:30 PM)


vcand
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Mar 3, 2010, 1:49 AM

Post #23 of 56 (4336 views)
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Quote
I searched this thread looking to see if you have the exact manual for your set...


I've been trying to search myself, and I've only found pieces, nothing complete. Do you know any reputable places online to purchase it? I keep finding plenty shady sites claiming to have it. I have no problems purchasing one if their not too expensive.


Ron.M
Veteran


Mar 3, 2010, 3:29 AM

Post #24 of 56 (4332 views)
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vcand;....


Quote
Do you know any reputable places online to purchase it? I keep finding plenty shady sites claiming to have it.

I have never ordered or purchased a service manual online...

However , that said , I found this one that seems reputable;....

http://www.servicemanuals.net/ServiceManual
/RCA/D52W20+/pos1/results.aspx


There's 3 variations of your model # there....

But.....
Hold off on ordering just yet...
I have more research to do & it's getting late here...
I've started a new "free" manual search....
I will post back tommorrow with any results....


Have a GREAT evening....


Later...Ron.M....Cool...
Veteran & Retired TV technician


vcand
New User

Mar 6, 2010, 11:01 AM

Post #25 of 56 (4268 views)
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Re: [Ron.M] RCA: No Red [In reply to] Can't Post

Good News!!!

So I got bored tonight and decided to find a way to get the boards moved. I removed a few panels, did some creative routing with the wires, and used the leftover plastic parts to protect one board from another, etc. FINALLY, I got it all hooked up, powered it on, and....

RED IS GOOD!!!

It was pretty amazing, red and green with no HRL's in the red like before.

Now the question/problem. I cannot seem to find replacement boards (found similar, but not exact). So that pretty much would mean, overhaul it, and to what degree? Should I just start with 1 group of components at a time (ie. capacitors, resistors, etc.) and replace them then try running the board after each group, or is there a more likely candidate?

I tested all the resistors, and they all have resistance (though I did not compare them to the values they should be yet). All the caps "look" fine, though one I'm a little questionable on (there's an almost too small to notice bulge on the top), and I will probably replace it tomorrow just to be safe.

Either way, I'm happy it's not a tube, and the problem has been isolated to at least a board.

Thanks again, I would've probably already had the tube replaced and left scratching my head.

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